Agnostics by the passage of time

Too Easily Offended?

[Good] morning Jane or good afternoon in Bahrain.

Thanks for another very thoughtful reply.

I don't know Dr. Moore and I'm very willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, that he is an earnest person. I believe he is wrong when it comes to these Koranic verses because I have read them myself. For the life of me I cannot understand what he sees in them, but I don't see what other religious people see in the book of Mormon, Upanishads, many verses of the old and New Testament, or Nostradamus for that matter. I also don't understand why he did not convert to Islam if he feels these verses are the word of God. It strikes me as strange to think that he would think that the embryonic verses are inspired by God but the rest of it is not, particularly those verses that consider certain Christian beliefs, like the divinity of Christ and the death on the cross to be anathema. Where these verses not inspired by God? Perhaps he has been able to finagle a different interpretation of these verses? I have great experience with Christians and Jews who are extremely efficient at interpretive gymnastics such that they can make any passage fit with modern understanding. I was once given a fascinating book by a Jewish Rabbi called the "science of God" by man called Schroeder, who is a very important Israeli scientist. It's amazing how he used general relativity explained this six days creation. I've also listened to a great Christian apologist called William Lane Craig, who has debated many Muslims, use similar interpretive gymnastics to explain away embarrassing passages in the Bible. No doubt Hindus find certain passages of their Scripture to be ecstatically life-changing and I have seen Mormons passionately assert that their book is the word of God.

I do not lump all theists into one bunch except in respect that they all believe that they know the mind of God, through some sort of Scripture. In addition they all claim that religion has changed their lives and given them a sense of the transcendent. Most religions in some way believe that those others are deliberately and malevolently rejecting the truth. Christianity and Islam particularly think that those others are going to rot in hell for all eternity for non-belief.

I watched a video yesterday on YouTube of a popular Islamic person reciting a Koranic verse in front of hundreds of people. He actually has a wonderful voice and just listening to the rhythm I would think it quite beautiful, except when I was reading the translation. He actually got people to weep as they contemplated how Allah is going to punish nonbelievers in hell for all eternity and how believers are going to get whatever their heart wants in the afterlife. The rhythm is beautiful, the content IMO, horrific and tribal.

[When] I left my religion, I found my life so much better. I could look at things honestly without threat of hell. No longer was I terribly concerned about converting people to my religion, but I found myself basically the same person. My life has its trials and tribulations, just like yours, and I still have a great sense of wonder at the beauty of life.

Sent to: Jane Dughatir

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Hello, Stu, I quite enjoyed the email  because it was at times a sincere effort to think about matters from two dichotomous perspectives. I agree with one thing, and that’s that not all religions have the same take on punishment, the Jehovah’s witnesses don’t believe in a Hell, if I have understood their belief in an afterlife as heaven on earth for some, or maybe all creatures with a soul. Not sure, but it shows that there are sects which dampen down the fearful elements of Godhead, to make belief more palatable to a wider public, but have no grounds in the actual scriptures, or very little, and a lot of hemming and hawing in their semantics. The bible is quite clear on this issue, but people tend not to want the truth because they are very sensitive and their fears reflect the general fears or rejection of central beliefs because of this learned response to the mere idea of punishment.

Do theists all really believe they know the mind of God? If they did there would never be any agnostics. Most agnostics had a religion, which they left to pursue and/or reject any other options. They are in spiritual limbo, like the position into which  Dante put two early Islamic philosophers ( Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd,  not Ghazali, obviously, who was more despised by critics) onto the heights (al-Araaf) in his famous work, because he respected him too much to consign him directly into Hell. (Graham, 2006) Ibn Sina was a drunkard    (Graham, 2006)

according to historical fiction if I can call books like Mark Graham’s, “How Islam Created the Modern World”, an orientalist type attempt to explain the rise and fall of the Islamic Empire.

 

Dr. Keith Moore doesn’t specifically say that he doesn’t believe that there are other passages in the Quran which are believable as well; his refusal to accept Islam, is his own choice, which could be explained with some thought to why people are afraid to change, for example, or because they like the status quo, or they actually believe that there is room in God’s idea of justice for more than one correct religion. This is in fact one way some adamant theists approach religion in general because they don’t want to reject any possibility; but they are unfortunately left coldly alone and uncomforted, like driftwood which eventually gets separated from its fellow travellers, suddenly night falls.
Take care.