Heads Up

The Art of War: Is Winning all There Is?

"Muslims can follow laws which aren't against Islam, noone thinks illegal parking or bank robbing are permissible, because they learned the laws. But as for Your Ways, why should we "respect" the ways of a deviant society, such as pornography and similar evils called "freedom of expression". Some of your "ways" are causing problems, and are therefore not something to be respected." Jane

PART ONE:

1 – You want only to win the battle. In the end, you might lose the war.

“You wanna fight?”

You might think you are scoring points, but your answers, questions and everything you say, the little nuances, or personal stories add up to a bigger picture. And they are like pieces of a puzzle, which if we examine a little closer, tells us about your method of argument.

(In a debate, there likely are many purposes or goals which each opponent has in mind.)

Case study:

I say, “Children won't know their parent in many cases; fathers won't know their children or might suspect their children are not theirs. It is bad all around. “

My “opponent” follows this with “if adulterers are killed, children will never know their fathers”.

Therefore, he thinks he wins a point, because it is true that children will never know their fathers, (which was an argument I use against “adultery” and he uses against “stoning to death adulterers”). It was my argument first, and I think he should find his own, lol. This is how debating proceeds however, people take notes, prepare their counter argument and then volley.

But Islam punishes the criminal; it also protects families, in this case.

The Prophet Muhammad said, “The lot of an adulterer is stoning, and the baby is for the bed (it was born on)”. This means, the baby is part of the family into which he is born (his grandfather’s family on his mother’s side) and if the mother is proved of adultery, she will also be stoned; the father of the baby will have no recourse to claim right of the baby, even in the case he is an unmarried man and will receive lashes and not stoning; in which case he will outlive the mother of the baby.

Many more men are adulterers than women, these days. If we apply the ruling on them, the mother, if single will be the sole caretaker of the child (in most cases, today) and the father (if married) would be stoned if found guilty (of fornication). The only good thing which can come out of this is that if the step-father is a decent person and caregiver, he can step up to the plate and raise a good child. (In Islam, fornicators can only marry fornicators, however, so the chances of marrying a pious person who also has committed fornication in the past lowers success of a good family setup; it’s not necessarily the case, however, and many people have reformed themselves once they learn the true meaning of Islam and submission to Allah.)

It is very grave for women to commit adultery, because people are never sure whose child the baby is (at least in the days before accurate DNA testing), and this would mean that although his siblings will be known (half-sisters or brothers) on his mother’s side, the relatives (e.g. brothers and sisters) would not be known on the father’s side. As far as inheritance laws, marriage and travel and other issues, this is important. In some cases, if the true relatives are not known, the child would in the future avoid the relatives of the suspected father as well as the relatives of the step-father (in marriage and travel and also inheritance.)

At least today, we can determine more accurately who the true father is, therefore avoiding problems such as a youth marrying impermissible women from his biological father’s lineage (if he has other children). This can also mean the child will not be alienated from all of his step-father’s relatives and can marry or have proper relations with some of his step-father’s family. It gives the child a better grounding, knowing definitely that he has family (extended family, uncles, or aunts, and that this man was his father by way of marriage, therefore all his step-father’s relatives are close kin to him by virtue of their blood ties to the step-father and his ties to him). Families cannot be blamed for compassion on a child who they believed was the biological son of the husband, but turned out to be otherwise. Good Muslims should not in any way abuse him for it, as he is innocent of his father’s crime. In such cases, children will be alienated from both ‘fathers’ however. This is the result of adultery, which hurts children most. It is better if society can compromise, with some visiting rights for relatives of the step-father, it is better considering the nature of the crime, that bio-fathers not see their illegitimate children, which would be harder on them and disrupt their lives. If a single mother marries, she can in any case repent and make amends, by marrying a decent person (someone who understands also, the error of his previous actions and has repented).

The Prophet, pbuh, told one of his wives to cover her face in front of a child in the future, because he recognized a resemblance (to the adulterer), meaning the child was the son of his mother’s lover and not the son of his mother’s husband - therefore, the Prophet’s wife, being a relative of the husband of the mother, couldn’t uncover her face in front of the child, because his true father was a stranger, and the child also a stranger (non-mahram; a person who cannot be alone with the woman because he is not eligible to be her guardian). The husband in this case was the Prophet’s wife’s (uncle or brother) and the child was declared the son of the woman, but not of Sauda's (RA) close relative (a mahram), so he couldn’t be a mahram for her in the future, so she covered her face from him.

God doesn’t allow society to be lenient on criminals, whether young or old, just because they feel compassion towards them. Wafa Sultan remarks that Islam takes every ounce of compassion out of the human being, but this isn’t the case. Crimes must be punished to protect society from harm and the rampant commission of crimes which cut at the fabric of families and communities. If we have mercy on rapists, sexually promiscuous people and other serious criminals, then everyone else will suffer the consequences. The effects of leniency are also obvious, as light sentences for rape in America have only allowed rape to go unstopped. A stronger deterrent is more beneficial than a weak one.

Islam seeks to maintain the ties of relationship, this becomes awkward when children are the result of adultery, and it is also a stain on the good reputation of a family when their sons or daughters engage in sexual relations which are forbidden, whether before marriage or after. The penalty in the next life is more grievous.

It’s unfortunate that a man will commit adultery with a married woman, who conceives, then one or both receive the punishment (if only one admits it she would be killed, if both are caught both would be killed). A man would do better to marry legitimately, if he plans for the future and  to have children. Obviously, a man let his passion for a woman or his desire for sex to allow him to commit this crime (adultery) and then regrets after when he is to be punished. But he would not deserve to see a child he fathers because he is a criminal, and what kind of example for a child is he? Also, because of his crime his child will grow up a “bastard”. Even though the child isn’t to blame for the situation, he must suffer shame and also he will never know his real father. This is why Islam encourages marriage, even to more than one woman if the man desires more than one wife. If someone cannot control his sexual desires but doesn’t wish to marry, then he will definitely cause himself or others pain and suffering. Some men want to marry but can’t, they should fast as a temporary solution, and we find that most people can find a suitable marriage partner, so this is no excuse, even if he is poor. We find examples of poor men and women who marry, in the past, and also in the present day. God fearing people do not commit adultery or fornication. In the past, men knew that it was likely the woman would conceive a child of his and this would come out, but they had sex with women anyway.

Knowing the options before him and the obvious possible consequences, I don’t think a man who is rational should have done such things, especially if it meant committing adultery with its grave punishment. Did he really believe he would never get caught? This shows the thinking of a person in such a situation is minimal and his actions are rash. Such a person doesn’t behave like a sane person, but more like a mentally ill individual.

Islam sets the bar high, so that Muslims will try to live up to the standards of decency preached by their religion. This is good for them and not something we are at all apologetic or ashamed of. I also don’t believe that it hurts more than it helps. The fact that four witnesses are needed (whose witness is acceptable, e.g. they are not known liars) shows Allah's immense mercy, the chance for repentance which sinners have, and the faact that adultery is ever proven (four witnesses brought) means that the sinner is a repeatedly committing this sin, and finally gets caught; if someone does it once, shame on him, but if he does it again and agian, shame on us! How can the ummah become this heedless?! How did we raise such people?! Isn't Allah All Aware?!Doesn't Allah provide us with the good things, so that we must reach for the forbidden?!! Don't we believe in Allah, the Glorious?!!  (I am speaking to the Muslims, obviously the non-Muslims have either similar or opposing ideas about this, depending on their backgrounds - DD)

As for the man who commits adultery while he is married, doesn’t it reflect on his character at all, even if he has mental problems, or is experiencing stress, etc.? I don’t judge people, it isn’t my place, but I ask maybe the reason he claims he was mentally ill at the time is because he was afraid his wife would leave him if she found out? Did she know about it? Is that the reason he says he was mentally ill at the time, and did he recover from the illness he is supposed to have had? It appears that it was a temporary insanity, which is something many people use as a self-defense mechanism, or to fool others (such as in a court of law) to plead innocent. Maybe he was afraid of the consequences and decided to plead “mental insanity”?

It is possible a person on some drugs would do things which he normally wouldn’t, but like I said before, this is the prevue of an expert not people who don’t know about medications or drugs and their effects on patients. Also, without personal knowledge of the person who did this, I can’t have any truthful opinion on his state of being before, during or after the adultery.

God is just, His laws are just - nor does ‘the way of Allah’ change.

If we change our minds about what is just or unjust every time someone complains, we wouldn’t have a proper system to deal with ‘crime and punishment’. Is Islamic law too harsh? Is the Quran too harsh, or impossible to implement, or are the laws man-made and therefore fallible or the result of 7th century thinking, morals and values which don’t match our modern world? The fact is, Muslims still exist, and they do okay, without interference from non-Muslims; Muslims’ new “non-interest based” offerings in finance are popular, no one is complaining if they can make money by using Islamic sharia-compliant products (“products” or “services” e.g. Investments, portfolios, shares in Islamic banks or companies)

What did I learn?

I learned several things.

- My opponent is aware of others’ arguments against Islam, which he brings to his debate.

- My opponent believes that he has a superior “moral ground” or “humanistic” approach because Islam proscribes a punishment for adulterers and others, whereas secular society doesn’t; therefore, secular society “appears to be” more forgiving and merciful than Islamic law; the God of Islam is unforgiving and merciless, in his opinion, and he proves this by examples of “weak” or “mentally ill” people who he believes don’t deserve punishment, but which Islam would have punished (actually mentally ill are not responsible for crimes, but what Islam does with them is up to a judge or what is practiced in such cases, these are issues (about which I’m not expert) which modern Muslims and Islamic scientists can determine answers, utilizing worthwhile modern approaches to problems (ones which don’t obviously contradict or contravene Islamic sharia).

For example, say that a judge decides that a man is mentally ill, so he admits him to an institution for criminally insane, that might not be against Islam, also, the person could be rehabilitated, in the case of a repeat offender, or perhaps a mentally ill person could be administered drugs which would cure him, or make him easier to manage, and therefore, these people could all be rehabilitated or partially cured, and then re-entered into society, under the supervision of their relatives, and under the care of a doctor, and so on. Muslim judges and rulers would base their decisions on the sharia, what it allows or cannot allow, and make decisions with Ijma or Ijtihad, which are, a group of scholars reaches a consensus, or a judge makes a judgment based on “conjecture” similar to the way the Prophet did in the example (see final “Notes”, for the corresponding footnote #1). (I advise the reader that I don’t know what “conjecture” in the modern secular law is as compare to what it means in this particular Islamic example, or if the word “conjecture” in the example given is a correct translation of the Arabic, too.)

- He is ignorant of the subtleties of Islamic jurisprudence; his arguments will always reveal the inability to argue successfully in an equally subtle manner (as I, who knows something worthwhile (in favor of Islam) compared to he, who doesn’t know details which will make his argument).

For example, I am sure (99%) that he knows nothing about al-Lian, which is one way to solve marriage problems when one of the partners discovers that the other has committed adultery; the couple resort to this (al-Lian, or swearing) and then divorce automatically befalls; therefore, no one is punished for adultery, because there are no witnesses, but the husband or wife, also doesn’t have to remain with someone they “know” most certainly committed adultery. Also, if they do this, the one who swears that the other is lying and s/he is lying her/himself will receive an extreme punishment in the hereafter, which if such a one were a better rank of believer (mumin or muhsin) or god-fearing, that one wouldn’t agree to, even if she/he risked exposing her/his family and self to shame and ridicule.

2- You want to take up another person’s time, while you are not really interested in learning the answers, but telling your personal opinion.

I can understand others’ personal opinions but I wouldn’t take them as my own, or abide by them. I don’t however enjoy much ‘wasting my time’ with people who ask questions they don’t want to know the (correct or best) answer to.

“Checkmate!”

Case study:

A man says that the Quran was not revealed but that Muhammad learned what he did from the Jews or adopted some of their beliefs and then founded a religion (Islam).

I can see from the opponent’s statements that he believes all religions are beliefs people had at the time, which were not revealed by God and that statements in the Quran about natural phenomenon were somehow discovered by someone and then Muhammad inserted them into his book.

But Muslims believe that the Quran is revelation, and that there is no proof that what is said (above) is what happened.

To prove this I will give a few extraordinary examples of miracles in the Quran, or signs, which show that the Quran (or at least these verses) came from a source which isn’t possibly human.

Did Muhammad [SAWS] guess some of the following; it is possible that someone could guess some of them, but not all of them.

CH. V.

Surah Hadid has, “We sent down iron”. Scientists very recently discovered that the iron ore within the earth is from outside of our world; there are signs that it is extra-terrestrial.

Muhammad recited the verse above e.g. Ch: V: over 1,430 years ago. How did he know that the iron ore was sent to the earth after its creation when the earth was still cooling, permitting the iron ore to enter the earth’s difficult to reach layers? When the earth cooled, the atmosphere and ozone layer appeared, and the earth’s layers cooled and hardened, and land mass in places also had eruptions of volcanoes, and the earth’s plates moved and faults developed all over the earth’s surface in different regions, where live or dormant volcanoes, and other natural land formations are visible.

It’s likely the Arabs didn’t know or hear anything about volcanoes, from other travellers or tradespeople, for centuries after the revelation. An ancient desert Arab such as the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, couldn’t have guessed that iron ore and metals are embedded deep into the earth, nor did others at the time know this fact; therefore, how did the verse come about and is proven to be accurate, and in no way at odds with modern science, specifically metallurgy, space science, earth studies like geography, geology, plate tectonics or volcanology, etc. and other verses which even correlate with the “big bang” theory, which is still not complete in all its details.

What did I learn?

 

I learned several things.

- My opponent doesn’t accept the views of non-Muslim experts, if their views agree with Muslims beliefs or statements in the Quran or hadiths.

- My opponent is argumentative, his opinion is the “final word” on any subject despite evidence to the contrary; this seems to imply that he isn’t interested in learning about the facts (which support evidence or signs in the Qur’an) that it is true and a revelation from God/Allah.

- Non-believers follow conjecture, even when there is clear proof that what they are following is incorrect, or inferior. Many also prefer secular laws over religious laws, so that explains why they are hostile to Islam, which is a way of life which is founded on revelation, the Islamic law based on that revelation (the Qur’an) and the “sunnah” of the Prophet.

(“Conjecture”, as practiced by the Prophet, pbuh, in the hadith, is permitted as a way of developing a juristic opinion in a case where there isn’t much else to rely on; no witnesses, or no “hard evidence” such as DNA, or video surveillance, for examples. But sharia doesn’t permit “misleading” or “questionable” evidence (E.g. Circumstantial evidence).

Meet a new Muslim on tv, tonite.
  Summary -

Science tells us that the earth must have been very hot and still cooling down from the “big bang” when iron ore and/or other metals, like gold within meteors (or what Allah “sent”) struck the earth with great force and entered inside. We cannot mine most of the iron ore, except by mining equipment and special practices which reach to the deposits. People used to mine some of the iron or, gold or silver and other metals, or find them in rivers, with simple tools, like pickaxes and gold pans, which would hold the gold and allow the water to escape only. Therefore, the mention of iron ore in the Quran without mentioning it’s origin would not be a “sign” or “miraculous”, but the mention that it is from space is a “sign” for those who have an open mind, and for those “who will believe”.

Non-believers always say, he could have guessed it; but I find this proposition highly unlikely and merely opposing the likelihood that it is divine inspiration, because people don’t want to admit that the Quran could be divinely inspired. If on the other hand, the Jews told Muhammad about the iron ore from space, how did they know? And if two peoples expressed the idea that the iron ore came from outside of our planet how did two different groups of ancient people come to the same conclusion without any idea about modern discoveries concerning the “extra-terrestrial” viruses, “microbes” or such, which scientists have discovered recently? This is more food for thought. The iron ore from space is mentioned in the Quran, I don’t know if it is also mentioned in the Bible, New Testament, the Old Testament, or the Torah? Or other ancient writing? It is however accurate and not in contradiction to science.

CH. V.

A world famous embryologist, Dr. Keith Moore, though he is a staunch Christian, said that he believed the verses on human embryology found in the Quran are accurate and furthermore that he believes they are revealed by God. He remains Christian despite this, and that is his personal choice and his freedom. It is admirable that despite his love of Christianity, his profession that Jesus is the savior of mankind, and the “son of God”, that he nonetheless expresses his amazement that the verses describing the development of a human being were revealed to Muhammad, 1,430 years ago.

Did Muhammad, pbuh, make any mistakes? Or to better ask the question, does the Quran contain any errors?

Many non-Muslims say the Quran does contain errors, but we say that it doesn’t.

What are some of the “errors” they are talking about?

CH. V.

“The sun set in a murky pool of water”.

Muslims didn’t really believe that the sun sets in a murky pool of water.

Lessons -

A debate has two results, a tie (inconclusive, not really a win/win) or a win/loss (is conclusive, but could be wrong e.g. the winner argued better, according to appearances, but their arguments are actually not true or not based on true facts, therefore they win by fraud/ or default (I’ll call it that); it is very difficult to say, in some cases, who the winner is because the audiences don’t know enough to choose the real/deserving winner, or the loser is not a good enough debater, so he doesn’t impress.) However, I caution that just because someone wins a debate, doesn’t mean that his arguments are substantial proof of his opponent’s misinformation, lies, or the uselessness of his arguments, or the wrongness of his claims; it does tend to show that debates are not proper forums for real discussion or (uncovering truth and) fact-finding activities. The results often undermine the true message of one side because a debater is unable to deflect the attacks of the other with enough force or conviction; the worst thing that can happen maybe, is that the debater concedes again and again, that he is incapable of furnishing proofs, or that he wavers in some of his stated convictions. There is a fine line, however, between convictions and mere prejudices.

If-you-want-but-you-cant-debunk.html#links

 

Part Two:

a)

- Is there a proven correlation between mental illness (of a temporary kind or a permanent kind) and acts of “adultery” or “fornication”?

- In Islam, if a person is criminally insane or mentally insane, might be viewed differently than a sane person who commits the same crime.

- I don’t believe an insane person commits adultery because he is insane. Also, this is based on the assumption that he was insane, not depressed, manic depressive, had a mental disorder as opposed to a mental illness, which are different altogether. A person with a mental disorder knows that what he is doing is wrong but can’t stop his self from doing that thing, which is sometimes treated with drugs or electroshock therapy, or some kind of properly useful therapy.

Islam requires expert opinion on real cases, not a mere opinion of any layperson or guesses. Even doctors don’t know everything about every problem, but they have enough experience that they can come closest to an answer of whether an illness would cause a person to behave a certain way or not.

Show me any writing which proves that there is a correlation (connection) between adultery and mental illnesses (of which type?) and I might be able to express a different opinion of your friend who you say committed adultery while he was mentally ill (if that is actually his diagnosis at the time of the adultery).

(Please don’t tell me that you asked someone or you are an expert, because I don’t know that I would believe you; bring the name of the study and what it says.)

b)

- You ask why Islam insists on four not five witnesses, well, that’s the number of witnesses for proving adultery which is stated in the Quran. It is four, not five or two or three.

- Can a person pay off witnesses to say that they saw a man (even if they didn’t) enter a person’s home, that they followed him, because he didn’t live there and there was a woman alone at home, and that this group saw him committing adultery with the wife of another, (or a daughter, if the woman was single) and that the woman allowed him to enter and they had sex, and you saw everything like “the kohl stick in the kohl jar”?

It’s possible but improbable that a person can pay off 4 Muslims (men) to falsely testify against someone.

During the Prophet’s time and in the case I mentioned as an example, there were no four witnesses. The husband didn’t bring four witnesses nor hire four false witnesses, and the man and woman weren’t punished.

There is a grave punishment in Hell for a false witness. Muslims will avoid this at all cost.

In case four witnesses like that can be paid they must be bad people, and their witness wouldn’t count. If they do this, they will go to Hell Fire, a fit punishment for false witness, especially when it involves the life of another person.

The witnesses have to be good people, known to be good and pious, so it is unlikely to find four good people who will lie just to get a person convicted of adultery (or for payment) while he is innocent, even if he is a bad person himself and might (possibly) have done it.

Non-Muslims always bring questions like this, to point the finger accusingly at Muslims, as if we are all liars, untruthful, untrustworthy, conniving, evil, despicable human beings. I thank you (or non-Muslims) to give some thought to your (their) questions before you (they) ask them. It reflects rather badly on you, and it shows that you haven’t given any deep thought to the subject at hand. You are eager to “score points” and you might have if I didn’t know more than you about the topic, but you are also not very “thoughtful” about the questions, so I win the war, and you might just win one battle, if you are ‘lucky’. Actually, I don’t think you can prove any of your claims, as they are just the same accusations others have said before, and don’t amount to “a hill of beans”.

I am grateful to have been able to read many books and to have studied a lot about Islam, which is very little compared to the amount of knowledge available; my efforts compared to others, and my successes compared to others is little, but I am grateful that it suffices me to reply to some peoples’ questions and to maybe help some people to understand Islam better. Islam is a good and just way of life; it has a moral code, laws, stresses equality and rights for all. You can’t find any matter (or it seems to me) that isn’t somehow mentioned in Islamic books which concerns daily living, and as well, scholars dealt with questions of jurisprudence and other weighty subjects since long ago. The science of Fiqh continues to be a relevant area of study in the modern Islamic world, and for others, too. I hope it will reach further, because the age is in need of scholars to help us in the murky waters, in jurisprudence and every important area of study and it would help others with their grave problems.

There is no harm, however, if Muslims don’t have all the answers, it is only for us to put our best foot forward and try in earnest to come up with modern solutions (problems of environmental law, natural law, etc) or juristic opinions in keeping with Islam which consider the modern facts and situations, and to be mindful in our attempts at all cost.

If we are talking about reality, there aren’t Muslims willing to testify, (especially in an Islamic state, where people learn Islam and are devoted Muslims - the kind of people you would bring as witnesses) against an innocent person, so that they can make some money, especially knowing that they will end up in Hell. Anyone who brings four evil people to testify for or against someone is going to end up in Hell with those men.

Is winning all there is? No, I think there is a lot more at stake than winning one battle, or even winning the war (the next life is more important than the battles fought over language, grammar, the interpretation of texts, or petty differences and personal animosity or prejudices) or having the admiration of people, that’s finding the truth. But if not to find the truth, at least finding that you have a common interest in cooperation with others who don’t think or believe what you do; the situation at present has to change, so that people come to be more open to other’s point of view, not to believe (if they can’t or don’t want to), but to create a better climate for peaceful co-existence. It is something Muslims might eventually get tired of speaking about, if no one is listening. That would be a very sad situation. Yes, Muslims could “go home”, shut themselves in their own corner of the world (that others even would let them is doubtful), but the world would lose out on the good that comes from relations, integration, trade partnerships, personal ties to others of different backgrounds, and the liveliness that integration can instill in a “stagnant” or homogenous culture.

Notes:

824. Narrated ‘Abdullah bin Mas’ud [RA]: Allah’s Messenger [SAWS] said to us, “O young men, those of you who can support a wife should marry, for it (marriage) controls the gaze and preserves one from immorality; but those who cannot should fast, for it is a means of suppressing the sexual desire.”

[Agreed upon].

(Bulugh Al-Maram, page 342).

853. Narrated Abu Huraira [RA]: Allah’s Messenger [SAWS] said, “A man guilty of fornication who has been flogged should not marry any but a woman similarly guilty.”

[Reported by Ahmed and Abu Da’ud; its narrators are reliable].

(Bulugh Al-Maram, page 352).

860. Narrated Salim on the authority of his father: Ghailan bin Salama accepted Islam and he had ten wives who accepted Islam along with him; so the Prophet [SAWS] commanded him to, “Choose four of them.”

[Reported by Ahmad and At-Tirmidhi. Ibn Hiban and Al-Hakin graded it Sahih [truthful]; but Al-Bukhari, Abu Zar’a and Abu Hatim graded it defective].

(Bulugh Al-Maram, page 355).

938. Narrated Anas [RA]: The Prophet [SAWS] said, “Observe her, and if she gives birth to a child which is white with lank hair, her husband would be its father; but if she gives birth to a child with eyes looking as if they have antimony in them and curled hair, the man whom her husband charged her with committing adultery is its father.”

[Agreed upon].

(The footnote (#1, page 387, Bulugh Al-Maram) of the publisher mentions:

“This hadith relates three points: First, about the things not made clear by Revelation, the Prophet [SAWS] made the exercise of judgment in them. Second, if first sources for decision making are not available, making decision by conjecture is correct. Third, in case of Li’an, even the conjecture is correct, woman [it was a married woman with an unmarried man] is not punished for adultery.”)

(Bulugh al-Maram, page 387)

939. Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas [RA]: Allah’s Messenger [SAWS] ordered a man to put his hand on his mouth when he came to the fifth utterance and said, “It would be the deciding one.”

[Reported by Abu Da’ud; its narrators are reliable].

A Young Sheikh explains the process of revelation (see 7 mins into the video).