Do I Question Myself?

I am not an arrogant person. I was bullied by my siblings as a kid, so I know what bullying feels like.
But even the meanest people, mean in spirit as well as intellect, can teach us something. I don't mind if people think I'm not the brightest person, but to accuse me of ridiculous things like refusing knowledge or going against Islamic teachings to the extreme that I am accused of extremism is truly unjust. When did I refuse to study or learn, or at least ask? I do ask.

No but some people don't even have the manners or patience to hear someone out, without making personal attacks or ugly comments. They are not willing to listen either, Others are eager to show how intelligent they are, or how much they know. But they have zero tolerance for others opinions.

The following is a series of comments that I had back and forth with someone on G+

The topic was a video but the discussion spiraled into other areas, related or unrelated.

Sensitive people, who don't like to talk about religion in the first place, are cautioned not to go beyond this point, unless they are sure they don't mind reading things they may not agree with or like.

***

Jan 15, 2016

+waleed mukhtar because I was busy?

Why are you so rude all the time?

Read back over your comments to me; when I asked you to refrain from bad language, you replied back with more of the same. Stop escalating.

I've been working.

Why don't you tell me what your proofs are, then? All I've seen is your ranting about nothing.

You assume that you are smart, that your 'opponent' is ignorant, though I don't know why. I have been in normal conversation with many ppl, and I never assume off the bat that they don't know anything. Below see the three points about which I think you were particularly abnoxious [sp]. What do you have against "houris" or "sunnah" or anything I've said, I just don't know.

I hope you keep studying, and learn some manners.

By the way, I had already given you something to read earlier today. Did you see the link I left you? Okay, that's all I had to comment. I'm done, brother.

Peace.

Chat Transcript

info: Please wait for a site adviser to respond.

info: You are now chatting with 'Faruq'.

Faruq: Hello. Welcome to our live chat. How can I assist you today?

Jane: alsalaamu alaikum. I want to know the proof for the statement by some that there are no 72 houris for the believers who are martyred. Is there a sahih hadith or any athaar that states this unequivocally? I get this a lot on the net, and am wondering where it is coming from.

Faruq: wa alaikum salam

Faruq: one moment please

Jane: Did the prophet, pbuh, also (in any hadith, or esp. sahih hadiths) permit men to listen to the deff at weddings?

Faruq: yes

Jane: Yes, men can listen to the deff?

Faruq: “The martyr (shaheed) has seven blessings from Allaah: he is forgiven from the moment his blood is first shed; he will be shown his place in Paradise; he will be spared the trial of the grave; and he will be secure on the Day of the Greatest Terror (the Day of Judgement); there will be placed on his head a crown of dignity, one ruby of which is better than this world and all that is in it; he will be married to seventy-two of al-hoor al-‘iyn; and he will be permitted to intercede for seventy of his relatives.”

Faruq: According to another report, the martyr has six blessings from Allaah. According to other reports (the number is) six, or nine, or ten.  

Faruq: (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, who said it is a hasan hadeeth. Also narrated by Ibn Maajah in al-Sunan, by Ahmad, by ‘Abd al-Razzaaq in al-Musannaf, by al-Tabaraani in al-Kabeer, and by Sa’eed ibn Mansoor in al-Sunan).  

Jane: Finally, is it wrong to say that if the prophet spoke about an issue, and said it was either halaal or haram or permitted that that is more strong, as a proof, than if he had kept silent about something?? For example, anger would show on the Prophet, pbuh, 's face. But if he didn't tell someone something is wrong, it meant he approved of it. or it was permissible, is correct? But if he spoke out about something, that is a better 'daleel'. Or the hadith about that has more weight if he actually spoke, and not just did something, like in the past, and then didn't do it, later.

Jane: thank you for that I will save it.

Jane: Also, I had the other two, I hope that's ok. I will wait, insha Allah.

Jane: Can men listen to deff at weddings?

Faruq: men listen to deff?

Faruq: are you asking?

Faruq: yes it is wrong speak on what was not spoken about

Jane: yes, can they listen to the deff played at weddings by the women

Faruq: listen in what sense?

Faruq: men hear it yes, but to sit and listen I am not familiar with this at weddings

Jane: I mean purposefully, like they are sitting nearby, not in a separate hall, farther away. Someone told me it's not haram but gave no proofs.

Faruq: The deff is permissible

Faruq: but in the narrations I am familiar it is used by women

Faruq: not men

Faruq: men heard it

Jane: meaning that their intention, is to listen, it is okay, that's what I wanted to know. Okay.

Faruq: but am not familiar with men making an effort to try and listen

Jane: Okay. Thank you.

Jane: Also, did you see the final question. It is difficult to put into words..

Faruq: Hadith are based on all of the actions you mentioned

Jane: If the prophet, pbuh, said something about a certain something, e.g. a food, for example. He would say if it was haram to prevent Muslims from it, or anything else that is considered haram or bad, e.g. smoking as an example. If he merely allowed someone before, to do something, but later it was revealed that was haram and then he stopped, if he tells the Muslims now to stop, that hadith is stronger as a proof, than one in which he permitted it by only letting people do it?

Faruq: most times we can tell by the reaction of the sahaba

Faruq: If something was specifically spoken about

Faruq: yes

Faruq: this has more weight than silence

Jane: Okay.I need proof that if he told them, it is more 'strong' than if he merely permitted it. For example, he put off eating honey and then it was revealed that he shouldn't do that. So he told them, the verse. The hadith in which he spoke against not eating honey is then considered stronger than if he had merely not eaten the honey. Okay, It has more weight than silence, that was it, exactly.

Jane: Do you know of a good example, so I can use it as a proof,or a narration?

Faruq: sorry for the delay

Jane: Alhamdulillah. that's fine.

Faruq: proof that speaking out wieghs silence?

Jane: Yes.

Faruq: https://islamqa.info/en/138742

Jane: thankyou for the help. Jazaumallahu khairun. Asalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah.

info: Your chat transcript will be sent to diamondraw4real@gmail.com at the end of your chat.

Faruq: my pleasure

Faruq: waiyakum fa jazakumAllahu Khairan?

LATER...

+waleed mukhtar I don't believe that we go to Paradise because of our deeds, so don't say that I said that. Plz show where I said that, I would immediately correct it! 

I have studied some, I have read and pondered, but you want to prove that you are very knowledgeable. Prove that you are an honest person in a conversation first! I don't 

respect liars, no matter what you claim to be studying and how sincere you claim to be. I don't need your 'sincere' advice bro.

More + Later...

Dec. 17th, 2016

It's been a long time since I read comments on this post, in fact I'm writing a blog post, which I'll post later (one of my post which incorporates emails or comments), to celebrate, in a way, the end of the year.

Everyone can read the 'convo' here. Wow, I'm "trying to hide something"! lolz. It's a long 'convo' though, so ppl should take time to read. They can take note of how you lie and put words in my mouth. I am actually 

revisiting this post, so I can blog about people who like to argue on the internet, who have no clear (or good) objective and benefit no one. 

For anyone who is reading this, I am not an extremist, never have been. I know that I have learned a lot over the years. I also encourage others to learn with scholars. And I never said that I was only studying on my own. 

I said I don't want to get a phd in fiqh - I didnt say I have stopped studying or reading. 

My level of knowledge about different areas of Islamic study isn't something I get into specific details. I don't think it matters because here, we are just regular people having a conversation with other regular people. 

Some questions that came up here, I answered sufficiently, or with the help of a chatroom. People can do their own honest research. I am not the Islamic Encyclopedia and never claimed I know everything or even know more than most Muslims.

I do believe that I try to understand things a lot more than many people. Does Islam teach mercy? Does it insist we kill Christians, etc? and similar questions are easily answered and there are proofs for why we believe Islam teaches mercy 

and why we don't have to kill non-Muslims. 

Just because someone whose name I didn't include, because it's been so long (that I don't think it would add anything to my comment) claims that there are no 72 virgins and laughs about my beliefs doesn't make him right. Lying and giving no proofs for what you believe makes you the obvious loser in this debate (or conversation if you prefer). 

I will make sure in the post to directly quote anyone who is included, not to say that they said this or that when they didn't. 

Peace, everyone.

Back In Time...

waleed mukhtarJan 15, 2016

+Jane Dughatir  you keep believing there is such a thing as 72 virgins chuckles


Jane DughatirJan 16, 2016

+waleed mukhtar So, do you believe in Paradise, or is that a 'fantasy' in your opinion?  I gave you the proof, from Islamic sources; you say you are studying Islam? Where are you studying, in Oxford? In UK, or America?

At your Bible College? I wonder...

By the way, I had meant to send you a message, so now is just as good a time as any; I had used the word "humiliated" when what I wanted to say was "learn humility" and for that I apologize. It was not done on purpose.

As for our difference of opinions on 'theology' let's just say we are beating a dead horse here, I am not about to accept other than credible proofs, and you haven't shown me any. Sorry for the other thing, anyway. Thanks for the opportunity to improve upon my writing skills, sometimes I made mistakes which obviously everyone does and later regrets. But no ill will was ever intended.

Just one more thing. You mentioned that we shouldn't judge others; and the young woman in the video, obviously whether I judge her or don't is something which only Allah knows.

Islam teaches that the life, honor, property, sanity of a Muslim are inviolable, that others should not trespass on these rights; so I wouldn't want to slander anyone. We don't judge but we advise and that's all this has really been about as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, new Muslims have an excuse of sorts; they need time, I know that as well; when I first converted I didn't wear the hijab for three months and tried to prepare myself mentally for that; it was not so hard for me, but others are not me and they might have an easier or more difficult transition into Islam; I knew a young woman from Grenada, she was actually a girl of 14 then, and she used to wear the hijab even though she was only studying Islam and didn't convert for another two years!

The link I provided proves [sp,grammar] that the specific out rules the general, meaning that there are cases where a different ruling applies; such as with new Muslims. I was only expressing my opinion based on past reading about what is the correct ruling for proper hijab (and clothes) for Muslims in general. Even men should dress modestly. I didn't talk specifically about men or about new Muslims; this was a general question and I gave general answers.

Also, I don't like the video on two other counts, mainly the music and the lyrics. The message is wrong; happiness is not the truth, I don't know what Farrell Williams means by that; but he knows that much better than I. And I try not to listen to music. Some videos have music, even the Islamic ones. I have to move on now.

Go in peace. Alsalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah.

12:53 AM

+Jane Dughatir still believing in 72 virgins woow... some people are gopping. just because a hadeeth is recorded doesn't mean it is authentic. there were those hadeeth recorded which were authentic yes. but there were hadeeth that were also fabricated(saqim) and these were also compiled and recorded for the purpose of not getting them mixed up with the authentic ones. ibn masud of kuffah did this and one of the hadeeths are very weak he recorded was the one about 72 virgins. 

which according to ijmah can not be used in theology as weak hadeeths can not be used in core theology!

i genuine feel sorry for you the fact that you believe in 72 virgins means you haven't got a bloody clue about the classification of hadeeth like- hasan, sahih, da'if, saqim,muttasil,mursal or musnad which are all different types of hadeeth oweing to your evident faults.... and you blog trying to teach others? smh.

Jane Dughatir 12:26 PM

There are the virgins in the Holy Book, that are the Houris I am talking about; as to their number, I believe it is 72, according to the hadiths. Even if it is a weak hadith, it is okay to use it for evidence, for lack of any other evidence. The prophet, pbuh, didn't say there aren't 'companions' in heaven for the martyrs, and the hadith says the number is 72, it is no problem for me to use a weak hadith, if it is weak, as long as it doesn't contradict the Quran. That is how 

even scholars approach such questions. 

But does it matter to me or does my faith hang in the balance if by ijma some scholars agree that the hadith is weak, so we don't have to use it as proof of something? No. It doesn't bother me in the least. 

Faith doesn't rest on such little things as whether it is true that there are 72 virgins or more or less for the martyrs. But there are virgins in heaven for the martyrs. Thanx.

This is where the brother "lies" or "twists my words"; I said this:

"The people of paradise will be sitting facing each other on couches and they will hear no vain speech and they will be wearing long robes. Allah knows best what the robes will be like.

The Houris will not be there they have transparent legs, they will be in rooms where they wait for their husbands; they are the 'virgins in paradise' some men will get as a reward, some two, some more than that; martyrs will have 72 houris, 

according to many ppl's understanding of the hadiths.

The women and men, when they retire to their upstairs rooms or "private rooms" will then be alone with their spouses, to enjoy their marriage in heaven.

Do you think that people who don't follow the dress code, no tight clothing in public, (and I only used that woman as an example, and I'm sorry she is in the video exposing herself, but there's nothing I can do about that; if she wasn't ashamed 

to do so, I guess the people who know her won't judge her too harshly; she will live it down, I guess.) 

that sinful people in general, as I was saying, will deserve the Paradise (without any punishment before hand, in Hell, or in the grave) where there is no vain speech, no intoxicants, no evil, etc. (nothing ["prohibited"] [or bad] in their gatherings)? 

The ones who enter Paradise will be dipped in water, so that they can enter it, after they have been in Hell, for their sins; Others who didn't commit grave sins and also were serious about their faith in general, but this doesn't mean Allah cannot 

or will not forgive [whomever] He pleases, and that's another side discussion. 

I am not judging her, Allah is the judge, and I hope [He] will forgive anyone who was in the video supporting an unworthy cause, and also forgive all of us, who comment on the video.

This isn't a personal attack on anyone. I don't know her, and I don't know you."

But the brother said:

1. I don't know what I'm talking about when I say that there are 72 Houris for martyrs. 

I already showed proof that many people believe that because of the hadiths (or one "weak" hadith, as he says), and the person I asked in the chatroom for evidence provided it. Another 

opposing opinion doesn't mean I have to believe that opinion, and even if I change my mind later about it, either way there is nothing wrong with believing either way. I still say there are 72 virgins in Paradise for martyrs. So what of it? 

It is something of the Unseen which there is no benefit in arguing about - it is sufficient to say we have different opinions about it; why laugh at someone else's legitimate opinion supported by scholars (just because you believe something else)? It seems you can't accept that there are people who believe things that you don't believe. We all know that there is room for differnet [sp] opinions, so stop belittling [others'] beliefs or knowledge because they disagree with you. 

Another good example, better proof that it is okay to use a "weak" hadith for lack of other evidence (than what I said above), the one "hadith" (or saying) that scholars use as proof that women can wear their clothing which has "the trace" of menstrual blood, even after being washed properly, to perform their prayers (and there is no sin on them for doing so). There is no other hadith which mentions "the trace" of menstrual blood on clothing or if women can pray in such clothing. The fact that scholars use this "weak" (daif) hadith to make fatawas for women or girls who ask about this problem (purifying the clothing, and if it is okay to pray with clothing or items on which the trace of menstrual blood is still visible, even after proper washing) is proof that what I said is correct. 

I learned this in a 'fiqh' class (very basic, as you say "a 5 year old" can learn basic fiqh).

 Why do some people (like this brother) always want to assume the worst about me? You don't know me, so stop assuming this or that, especially stop lying about what I've said, when it 

is there for you/all to read in black and white. What's wrong with you/people? (Did I hurt his/your feelings, wound his/your ego? (Well, the brother should've apologized when he had the chance, and he should've not called me on things that he hasn't a shred of evidence about. Or he believes he is so much more superior to me in knowledge, education, family background, or maybe because I'm a woman he believes himself a superior intellect? Why doesn't he know the basics then? He is studying and says he learned the basics, presumably, since he tells me to keep studying so that 

I can know as much as he does (at least!)).

2. That I said we go to Paradise because of our deeds. 

I said God can forgive anyone whom He wants to forgive. I don't understand why someone is arguing this point, unless it is to make me look bad? I have no animosity towards other people I don't know (without a reason). 

The only reason I commented on this video, like some others, was to add to the "debate" and share my knowledge on this issue (whether music or dancing in public (a video isn't a family gathering) is permissible according to Islamic opinion). I always say that others can (and freely do)

 disagree with me. I have also read the many opinions (some by non-Muslims saying it is okay for Muslims to be in the video, which don't hold any weight as far as what is islamically correct) and already knew there would be a polarizing effect even among Muslims. This doesn't mean people have to throw insults at each other or belittle each other.

I sometimes poke fun at others, like I did yesterday when I spoke about Lindsay Lohan, when someone asked why  her English is so bad. I hope most people who know me on the internet will understand that I was joking. There is a grain of truth in what I said (that Americans 

don't know how to speak English) but it was just poking fun. I would apologize if someone asked me for an apology. And I have nothing against Americans in general and know that there are also very intelligent Americans just as there are some 'less than bright' ones.

That's my final word on why I said the things I said concerning the video. I also hope this clears up any misunderstanding or clears the air about what the brother said about my opinions.This discussion isn't about us, or our/anyone's inflated egos/ego, but about what is proven or can be supported with evidence.

One Final Comment from both  sides:

waleed mukhtar1:49 AM

+Jane Dughatir it's not even a weak hadeeth it's baseless! ibn mas'ud (the recorder) and hadeeth scholars after him said the hadeeth of 72 virgin has defects both in its transmission (either the name of the narrations is unclear or one or more of them has some unsatisfactory qualities) and it is weak in met'ten meaning the actual content of the hadeeth is compromised! again this is ijmah. and it is ijmah that baseless hadeeth which have defects in its content can not be used in beliefs especial [oh, a small grammatical or spelling error that should be overlooked!] that of heaven, hell, obligatory duties, Allah and his attributes etc.

jane jane jane please don't make reference to the quran now as if you would be right in your understanding in tafsir ul quran when you couldn't distinguished between sahih hasan or da'if and baseless hadeeths...like hell you know the difference between specific ayah and general ayah, law barring ayah to muthashaabihaa to abrogated and abrogating ayah not to mention depending on the mathaab(hanafi, maliki, shafi'i or hanbali) or and the theology( ashari, mathurreed, athari) you follow your understanding of the quran will vary... but of course I assume you have no knowledge of that because you bonehead of a teacher is scamming you, and he/she is scamming you good!

why are we even having this conversation? a [small error] old dog could learn new tricks quicker than you could learn that your being either lied to or misguided by some moron on the bare flimsiest of points in religion, [Exactly, it is a small point, but also not impacting on anyone's basic beliefs].

" But does it matter to me" 

of course it doesn't matter to you because if it did you wouldn't be committing religious suicide and going against ijmah set out by major scholars including that of the salaf such as imams ahmed and imams shafi'i (and if you're going against them then your just another innovator with serious defects in your religious beliefs)

could you imagine the doctor saying "you have cancer trust me I'm a doctor!" and you respond to it 

doesn't concern me I mean I don't see what the problem is I feel fine" 

absurd.

[The block letters (above) are mine, his words, which I am glad I don't have to take any credit for!]

Jane Dughatir10:31 AM

 1

Edit

+waleed mukhtar how am I going against anything? I asked for a right opinion from Islamic sources and provided you with that. 

The unseen isn't something we have to prove. And you said it was a "weak" hadith, now you say it is worse than that. It doesn't matter to me at this moment. I am not making a fatawa here. There isn't anything about this specific hadith (whatever it is, daif or otherwise) which contradicts the Quran. That is the bottom line. 

I as a Muslim, to practise Islam, don't have to know if that specific hadith is weak or not. That is the other thing you are obviously not even thinking about. What does this have to do with knowing fiqh so that I can pray or fast, or perform the fard duties (obligations)? It is a belief that doesn't impact anything. (You mention that I have to know at least as much as a five year old about fiqh matters, well thanks for the advice, lolz)

I know for a fact, which I learned in an Islamic studies class at an approved college, that a weak hadith can be used (by scholars) to make 'fatawas' in case there is no other source available. 

You say that the 'hadith' about the 72 virgins is false, whatever. This is not a problem for anyone. If it is false, I can accept that, it doesn't matter to me either way. 

Your problem is that you think just because a 'hadith' is weak (what you said first, now you are saying something else, which you like to do a lot) that it has no worth at all. 

Why are the weak hadiths included in books then? Because they are still relevant to studying. I have no problem with hadiths studies. I am not interested in being a hadiths scholar either. But again, it doesn't impact on my daily life or worship, my basic beliefs, and hence I don't know why you are urging me so intently to study (whatever). What's it to you, really, I can't imagine? 

If I prefer to be a simple woman who spends part of her day taking care of her household duties, part of her day working and part of her day on the internet making comments, what's it to you? 

But back to the topic at hand; I think you probably will not believe this, but weak/daif 'hadiths' can be used to make 'fatawas' in the absence of any other hadiths, if they don't contradict the Qur'an. The only hadith that scholars use to make the 'fatawa' [(for women and girls)] that they can pray in their clothing or any item of clothing or prayer cloths, etc even if the "trace of blood" is still visible (menstrual blood), is a 'weak' hadith. 

So I don't see a problem with a weak hadith that doesn't contradict the Qur'an. That is even okay when we are talking about the most important and foremost duty, the prayers, and about the acceptance of prayers e.g. how to achieve that! An act is not acceptable unless the steps to perform the act and the intention are correct. The clothes must be purified, just as the body must be purified, and yet the only hadith for a judgement regarding women's salah/prayers in clothing with a "stain" of menstrual blood, is a 'weak' hadith. The Qur'an doesn't mention this, but it does say that sexual intercourse isn't permitted during women's menstruation and that touching the Quran or verses is forbidden for them during the menses.

My intention in discussing this with you has been only to show where I didn't say anything wrong, when you accused me.

You keep accusing again and then laughing and then changing what you say.

I can easily ask someone about the hadiths, whether or not they are sahih, or what grade, and which book they are in, etc. But you seem to suggest that I refuse knowledge, just because I said I believed what someone else (who isn't you) taught me. 

Now. If you are wrong, or my teacher is wrong, or in fact neither is correct, is not something I know. 

But I know you change your argument when I call you on your errors. 

I'll be posting a blog post soon, which I will share the link with people here. So they can decide for themselves, whether or not you have been honest in your comments or not.

Peace.

[The last comment and the one above have some slight changes which are in square brackets].

According to him "[I] haven't got a bloody clue" about lots of things, or almost everything I need to know about Islam! Wow. But maybe he doesn't think that little of me. 

I have to ask,  does every Muslim know every hadith or what the chain is or what it is graded (daif, munkar, etc) No.

 I don't even know what the classifications are, or maybe I do! But what is it your [or anyone else's] business, if I haven't a clue about most hadiths, there are "bloody"  millions (including the different versions), I am sure, that I am supposed to know by heart??? Really??? 

So I can't comment on a video about women and men dancing in public, women in tight pants, some of them, and I need to go study just to do that? 

Every time [this brother] asked me something I replied back with proofs! Yet he refuses to discuss matters with politeness and continually abuses me. 

Please leave comments. Thank you.