(Zaha S, says)
Ummm first and foremost Allah is Arabic for God and lol I don't think you fully understand the meaning of "Islamophobe". I don't agree with these terrorist groups and most good pious Muslims don't either but they have power, money, and believe it or not the Western governments backing them up so there is not much we can do except use our voices. The only spread of Islam you're talking about is peaceful just like Mormons or Jehovah's witness' at your door on a Sunday morning except even less. Honestly the only thing I'm really concerned about is people looking at weird groups or countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia as models of Islam and thats the opposite no country on earth is representing Islam correctly unfortunately. So please please please as a fellow human being talk to a Muslim about our way of life, don't gather info from Islamophobe sites or people. Happy Turkey Day :)
terente P , says:
+Zaha S
no matter what allah in arabic means! its about what are the properties of that allah and they indicate satan, not god. if that what arabs understand as god its actually satan, then is satan their god! worshipers of satan = muslims
you take the arabic meaning of god but tell further down saudi arabia is a weird country :))
you claim there are only some bad examples, but you cant mention a single islamic country where islam isnt bullshit - islam isnt peaceful, no matter which country we take as example
-honour killings
-minor marriages
-death penalties for homosexuality, sex outside marriage, apostates
-slavery
-oppression of women generally
....
we dont need spreading of islam!
Zaha S
Nov 29, 2013
"The same God I pray to everyday is the same God you pray to (if you believe in God). Yeah exactly there are no countries where Islamic law is practiced correctly. And it really does make me mad because there are extremist groups who are absolutely horrid, very UnIslamic, and they oppress all those around them and people who aren't Muslim get the wrong idea. All those supposed "properties" of Islam you mentioned are not Islamic at all they are cultural. I'm a Muslim women Al7amdulliallah (Thank God) because Islam gave me the right to vote, to divorce, to run a business, to own land and inherit WAAY before the West did. Like I said a lot of what you said is cultural like honor killings, minor marriages, it is true that homosexuality, sex outside of marriage, and being an apostate is forbidden but they are not punishable by death . Slavery is also forbidden in Islam. I could go on this makes me so sad that you're so misinformed. If you don't like peace then so be it but please refrain from criticizing my way of life. I love all of God's creation and so I do care that you understand Islam correctly."
terente P
Nov 30, 2013
you are the one who is totaly misinformed about islam if you claim that would be cultural and not islamic!
"homosexuality, sex outside of marriage, and being an apostate is forbidden but they are not punishable by death"
I can show you fatwas which tell that homosexuality and apostasy must be punished by death. and even if it would be only forbiden, why should it be forbiden? that reveals the intolerant and totalitary character of islam!
"Slavery is also forbidden in Islam."
Qatar is treating their guest workers like slaves and also in every islamic country there is slavery. all that is according to sharia, the jurisdiction in islam (from allah)
and what kind of filthy culture is that, which includes all that atrocities? thats no culture! its coming from that filthy book, quran
"Islam gave me the right to vote, to divorce, to run a business, to own land"
dont tell bullshit! women arent allowed to vote in islamic countries, nor to divorce. all that rights are given to you by our democracy, our human rights in the west! you have nothing like that in islam! where did you get all that rights in islam if you already claimed that no islamic country practice it correctly? YOU LIE, LIKE EVERY MUSLIM BEING GAME OVER! :))
and how is looking that correct islam, if it isnt practiced anyplace?
"refrain from criticizing my way of life"
so far your way of life interfere mine, not only that i will criticize,but I also fight it!
"I'm a Muslim women Al7amdulliallah (Thank God)"
why thank god? that means you see yourself as something better than those who arent mulsims. that is muslim infatuation!
"The same God I pray to everyday is the same God you pray to (if you believe in God)"
no, it isnt, because the quran's god is satan
you worship satan when you pray every day
"If you don't like peace..."
islam doesnt know peace! islam is obediance, oppression, violence, hate, submission, conquest, ....
stop spreading that filthy cult around the world! nobody like muslims, there are everywhere problems with them. if you dont put and end peacefully to that insanity of an illiterate pedophile sik man from 1440yrs ago, we will have to put an end, no matter what we have to do for that. we have to protect our cultures and our future from that threat called islam!
tvee
Nov 30, 2013
+Zaha S You are absolutely right! Your comments are refreshing and enlightening. You are obviously a person who values PEACE and LOVE amongst ALL people. I'd like to know your opinion about 2 question I have - Wasn't Islam as practiced during the early years of the Prophet Mohammed influenced by the Arabian tribal and cultural traditions and values of the people at that time? Beheadings for some crimes? Honor punishments? chopping of limbs? Are beheadings and cutting of limbs for punishment mentioned in the Quran? 2nd question - in your opinion, which Islamic country today comes CLOSEST to being truly Islamic? I know you said there are none, but the closest (even if it is a far shot)?
Zaha S
Dec 1, 2013
+tvee Hey thanks, and its nice to meet someone with the same values regardless of their background and who they are! During the early years of Islam Prophet Muhammed and his few but growing followers were looked down upon, beaten, tortured, for their differing views which were going against what you're talking about plus to give charity to the needy, stop worshipping idols, abolish slavery etcc. Killing is not mentioned in the Quran unless it is in self defense, in time of war, or if someone has committed murder and proven guilty. The punishments mentioned for doing something forbidden can differ from lashings to prison time depending and then they are forgiven just as God is all forgiving. These beheadings and "honor" punishments you're talking about don't really occur that much in the Muslim world not as much as the media makes them out to be, but they do happen and they are horrid cultural practices. Personally I'm a Libyan-American and I haven't seen any good Islamic countries and the biggest reason is culture. I know this because I've met the best practicing Muslims here in the states, and its because they don't have that culture to influence them. Also, random fact but Islam is the fastest growing religion in the West and 3/4 of those reverting are women. Nice talking, as long as you don't insult what I believe in then I respect you and your views :)
I have to stop here, and note some important details in point form, because there are so many!!
Zaha uses modern colloquialisms, often punishments are “horrid”; “random fact”, Etc. So I know for a fact she is a “girl”. I called her a “little girl” which she took offence at, but at least she didn’t get called worse names. So I’m not a nice person, sue me!! But the point being, I believe she is a “little girl”. It isn’t a crime to make a character judgment on the internet, even she should know that internet is impersonal and therefore, I can make judgments as I see fit. I didn't say it just to get a rise out of her, that would have been trolling. I don't do much of that.
Did I ever claim to be a nice person, or very nice? Does that matter in a debate which only requires facts? FACTS are what COUNT> being nice doesn’t mean a thing. Obviously, Terente P doesn’t care that Zaha wants “to be his friend”, and “cares about him” (my words).
The two people who do care about being friends are Zaha and Mr. T (tvee) because they have found allies in their fight for “peace”. Their peace initiative is however built on sand and not a rock, and in the real world, would fall, because you can’t have lasting peace or love built on lies.
Zaha mentions, punishments from lashings to prison time, “depending”. She is talking about serious punishments for serious crimes. But there is lashing for “fornication” and lashing for “slandering people” but if the slander amounts to accusing someone of adultery, the punishment will be flogging and the person's total humiliation - their word would never be any good, and that is something very dishonorable in Islam! Islam doesn’t permit slandering “good or chaste women” it says in the Quran. The Quran specifically mentions this sin, and especially about women, though it is the same whether a man or woman is wrongly accused.
Zaha doesn’t give specifics, okay fine. But she does then say, that “lashings and prison time” are the punishments, and that there aren’t “beheadings” or “killing” except for (we are talking about punishments not war, here) “MURDER” only. She doesn’t know or doesn’t agree that Islam punishes homosexuality (or there are examples of this in the hadiths) and adultery (the married person committing fornication, not a single person - even if he or she has sex with a married person)
I’m not going to discuss sharia more than this, just to be clear. But it is true there are examples in the traditions or hadiths/sayings, that homosexuals should be thrown off a cliff or killed e.g. stoned, I imagine. I would have to review that. (Since stoning is the lot of an adulterer I imagine it is one way to punish homosexuality which is just a different kind of “illegal sex which is forbidden” But the reason homosexuality deserves death is because “if adultery is forbidden, so is homosexuality forbidden forever” (my own words). There is no marriage in Islam between gays or lesbians, so the marriage amounts to fornication, if the ppl are unmarried or adultery if a married man or woman is having a sexual relation with another person , even if they are divorced, and not married anymore) Anyway, facts are facts. This doesn’t mean there is a lot of killing of homosexuals today however, because there are not so many ppl in Saudi or Iran “coming out” or practicing a homosexual lifestyle in plain view of the government. (That would be suicide, which is also forbidden, lol. Sorry for the moment of brevity about an important topic, FOS) Homosexuality is a worse crime than mere fornication, so that is again why it is punishable by death. Fornication between single men and women isn’t punishable by death.
Here I will just add also that I don’t believe there are very many homosexuals in the Gulf States, but for sure not many in Saudi Arabia and certainly they don’t practice openly. (In Mecca there are not homosexuals practicing openly, that is really unimaginable to me. So I say it’s impossible) However, there are openly gay or transvestites, at least, in Bahrain. Bahrain is a small island country with a monarch, King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifah. It has a border crossing (a bridge) with Saudi Arabia, and many Saudis also arrive in the Kingdom every week for visits or shopping, etc.
If someone is homosexual I don’t think they would dare practice their lifestyle in public in Saudi, they are gay not stupid. Also, if they come to Saudi for work or are in the armed forces or navy and visit the city of Riyadh, or other places, they probably should keep a low profile. That’s my advice, but I’m sure these men and women know that. They receive all kinds of cultural training, so much so that Western or European women even often wear a veil or some completely cover, as you can see one elderly woman on YouTube™ do.
Also, whether one is gay or straight, they should follow the law, or they risk punishment, which in case of drug offences, drinking in public, or other, are strictly illegal and could mean jail time, deportation, or maybe even worse. The government does often forgive criminals or release them to go home after they have served some of their sentence or paid fines. If not, then after they have served a full sentence. There might also be capital punishment for some foreigners, but I don’t recall specific cases. It is something I could research; I saw one documentary about a murderer, who was serving jail time, of twenty five years maybe, for murdering his Saudi sponsor. He says he accepted Islam in prison, so maybe he did that sincerely, and isn’t being killed, or he did it to avoid a more severe punishment and is not really Muslim, but I shouldn’t speculate on that.
She also talks about sitting in the back seat instead of in the front with the man who is driving her, because she isn’t permitted to drive. And she knows that his wife would not like also if he had a woman sitting in the front with him. She doesn’t say that it makes her feel second class however, that’s just how it is there. And as a “guest” of the Kingdom, she respects the culture enough to follow the social norms and also the law of the country.
terente P
Dec 1, 2013
+Zaha S "These beheadings and "honor" punishments you're talking about don't really occur that much in the Muslim world not as much as the media makes them out to be, but they do happen and they are horrid cultural practices."
you still aren’t able to answer what kind of culture is that!? i never heard that beheadings and killings can be seen as culture...
"Also, random fact but Islam is the fastest growing religion in the West"
its that something good? no! something growing doesn’t mean its autmaticaly good
and that’s only propaganda! there are a lot of efforts to make it growing, if it wouldn’t be like that, there wouldn’t be convertions!
and why should be forced islam to grow like that? don’t you have repect for other religion?
there are a lot of questions you have no answer and put your islam in bad view. but you ignore it, like every shameless muslim i have met until now...
What I think:
I have to differ with terente P as well on some points:
Islam isn’t a culture without a religion and religion takes precedence, even though cultural differences aren’t all discouraged. So yes, the punishments are dictated by the religion when we are speaking about sharia. But there are cultural “beheadings and honor killings” which we hear about sometimes on the news, as well. IN fact, “honor killings” are purely a cultural practice and have no sanction in Islamic law, because “honor killings” are always done by the family and usually punish women or girls who might be falsely accused, or a young unmarried couple in love, who also do not deserve death or “honor killing” by stoning or any other way. Previously unmarried men and women or youth are not ever killed in Islam. So, it is being done in Muslim majority countries but is even forbidden by Islam. No one is to be killed except in four cases e.g. adultery, intentional murder (or a planned murder), homosexuality and apostasy, and Allah knows best. These are the four mentioned in the Quran specifically. That doesn’t mean that drug dealers for example, are also not likely to be beheaded or executed, because they also are “killing people” by selling and spreading narcotics. Rape is also a capital crime, and the criminal is punished, not the victim.
The fact that someone argues against culture just because it is different is not okay, in my opinion. There are many diverse cultures around the world, and this is a beautiful thing. Therefore, the evil practices are the problem. But some cultural norms appear good in one culture and would appear the opposite in another culture. So, it isn’t always easy to tell, what is good and what is evil, is it? Isn’t it sometimes the opinion of a person and not really the majority opinion? For one, the reason that referendums are held is to determine what the public wants. Sometimes, cessation looks fine to many residents, but overall, the vote is in favor of not ceseding, as happened in Quebec , and also countries in the EU have had similar type referendums about joining the European Union, or about adopting one currency, the Euro. And so on. " Sometimes, the government or senate decides what is good. These are made using their onw judgement and by majority rule, but doesn’t mean they are right. Or right for everybody just because you think they are good. Maybe they are the worst thing. Interest isn’t permitted in Islam but the non-Muslim nations think interest is a good way to make money without having to work for it, because that’s what interest amounts to, money which you get on top of your capital (which you did work for). In Islam, interest is compared to incest with one’s mother. It is considered one of the worst things around because it doesn’t create wealth or bring blessings but destroys wealth and economies.
To quote Terente again,
‘“Also, random fact but Islam is the fastest growing religion in the West"
its that something good? no! something growing doesnt mean its autmaticaly good
and thats only propaganda! there are a lot of efforts to make it growing, if it wouldnt be like that, there wouldnt be convertions!’
He believes propagating one’s religion is evil, but we are not talking about forced conversions. His opinion is that it is not good and he equates freedom of religion and free speech practiced by Muslims (when they preach openly in public) as a kind of hate crime, but many people would defend the idea that speaking about one’s religion, as happens in London a lot, in the street Dawa, or he mentions CAIR defending Islam, is free speech, and should be permitted. These are opinions, but there is also the matter of the law, which may permit preaching in public. So far, we haven’t seen Muslims arrested in London for only preaching a peaceful message. Whether one believes Islam is really peaceful or not is not the only question. And there is no court in Britain or America that has ruled Islam as a violent and intolerant religion. Douglas Murray and others say it is, and their freedom of speech has not been curtailed either. But Islam has not been banned in Europe or the West. So Muslims are not breaking the law by practicing their freedom of speech right or associating with Islamic groups, like CAIR. If that will always be the case of if the nature of some groups changes in the future is another question.
Zaha S
Dec 1, 2013
What in the world do you mean what culture is that? Its apart of a terrible cultural practice in the Middle East I thought that was already established. Yes it is something good because it is my way of life and I see it as beautiful and peaceful and if more people embrace that lifestyle then that makes me happy. What propaganda? I'm still itching my head at your ignorance; I don't think you're an idiot though, just misinformed. There is no such thing as forced Islam and most reverts find Islam on their own. Ask me anything, what did I ignore? I apologize if I ignored anything.
She says he is misinformed but not an idiot – that’s nice of her. In fact, she is so nice, that she can’t say anything which would hurt someone’s feelings, so she doesn’t want to tell the truth, which is that there are “beheadings” sometimes a lot, but especially in Iran or “killings” especially in Iran. Also, Saudi Arabia Kills murderers and adulterers, or stones them, which is the same thing, in the end. It is not something we want to happen to anyone, but is the punishment for those crimes, per the sharia. People know that these punishments exist, and in Islam IF ONE DOESN”T KNOW THE PUNISHMENT FOR A CRIME< the he is not punished with it. That is COMPLETELY TRUE. I will even swear, it. Islam doesn’t punish someone for adultery if he says he didn’t know that the punishment for adultery existed. The judge is supposed to ask the person if he understands what he did, and if he knew that there is a punishment for it, e.g. did he know if he committed adultery he should be stoned??And KILLED??
If someone claims they didn’t know, and the judge believes them (there is no proof he did know), then he is let go. But the next time, he won’t be as lucky, unless he can prove next time that he forgot, and has a memory loss, which would need a doctor’s witness.
This means, not everything is as “obvious” as one imagines, or that not as many kilings are occurring as one might imagine should be occurring. Yes, a lot of adultery, but the punishments are not as many as the actual cases of adultery. I know this is true, because adultery must be proven with four witnesses, and this is discussed elsewhere in my blog. (I’ll try to leave a link).
Zaha has no problem with saying the Middle East has a culture that permits people to behave horridly. It isn’t about Islam, she says. So, insulting Middle Easter culture is okay, blaming Islam for “beheadings” is wrong.
Whatever one believes about beheadings, they are legal punishments carried out in Muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia and Iran. You can agree or disagree with the laws of other countries, but don’t lie that they don’t exist, or worse, say that the Quran doesn’t permit it. Also, it isn’t only Arab or Middle Eastern or even Muslim majority states which have capital punishment, beheadings might take place as well, certainly hangings are still practiced, and lethal injections and even firing squad are used in different places.
There are no legal slaves in the Middle East or the Gulf States. But I also would be cautious not to say that slavery is “forbidden” because the Quran doesn’t say that. It isn’t permitted in Islam however, to make a free Muslim person a slave. It isn’t permitted to take a Muslim who is already a free person, as a slave. He might have been a slave before, but once he has purchased his freedom or been emancipated by his owner or another person, he is free for the rest of his life. (If a non-believer takes him as a slave, is also something which would have to be discussed separately, but probably Muslims would really look down on a non-believer who takes a free Muslim or person as a slave, but that is what used to happen in the past to people.)
tvee
Dec 1, 2013
+Zaha S Thanks for your reply and explanation. I read an article in my local newspapers a few months ago, stating that a Muslim organization used an index based on (equality, freedom, etc) to gauge how compliant countries are to Sharia laws and surprisingly they have rated some countries (in Europe and the West) as more Sharia compliant than some Islamic countries. It was interesting. The study was meant as a wake up call to some Muslim countries to do more to tackle poverty, injustice, equality, etc in their countries. I'm an Atheist, but in 2012 I was in Turkey & I had a very beautiful conversation (through translator) with an old sufi master. The gentle and compassionate sufi tradition within Islam should be revived and spread. Much of India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia, etc were spread by sufi missionaries. I saw through the sufi master LOVE, PEACE, TOLERANCE & UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD for ALL mankind! It is such a different message from Salafism & Wahabbism traditions which teach a 'us' versus 'them' world. I don't believe in God but u said in a post that the God you worship is the same as the God Christians & Jews and other people worship. That was a beautiful statement of TRUE LOVE that REFLECTS your God in YOU! :)
Jane Dughatir
Dec 4, 2013
There are no Muslims who call themselves Wahabis, this is a misnomer. It is a way to label Sunni Muslims, who are the majority, by the way. Sufis are not hurting anybody, but they are not following Islam as the majority either. You are saying wrongly, that they are the best Muslims. they are no more kind than my friends, who are all Sunnis. I don't have a problem with someone who practices how he wants but it isn't right to demonize the majority because you don't know Muslims well. Of course you believe so called Salafists or Wahabis are bad, because you believe everything you read about Islam (for the most part) is in the media. You can find many, many Sunnis on the internet and ask them their opinions about issues, and you will find that they also believe in live and let live. They are not out to get you or to Islamize the entire world. We are not ordered to turn everyone into Muslims against their will, it is a small majority of Muslims who actually think like that, or in terms of us and you. Also, I have Turkish women friends and they are just like me and my other friends; they care about the same issues that other Sunnis do. Peace.
Jane Dughatir
Dec 4, 2013
By the way, labeliing the majority of Sunnis as "salafist" or "wahabis" is starting to border on hate speech. Sunnis and Sufis all call themselves Muslims, and hardly do they get into discussions about their differences, except as an educational exercise. We are very united in our views and aspirations, but appear to be disunited; the media perpetrates the appearance of great schisms, which don't really exist (or result in disunity) among Muslims in their daily relationships with each other.
I should have siad, it is already at the point where labeling of sunnis occurs, and it borders on hate speech. This is something that has to be addressed in a public sphere. I wish more is said by othes about this problem.
In some previous statements by tvee, which are intersting, quoting a study, he mentions that a study showed that sharia is being practiced more in non-Muslim countries, and the index Does this mean that sharia is good, or that the West is more Islamic only? It appears that the fact that Western or European countries (according to what tvee explains) are more sharia compliant and therefore, also better. This is actually a good sign, then. I would tell +terente P to consider this part of +tvee ‘s remark before saying that Islam is “evil” ( my wording) or anything of that sort.
Jane Dughatir
Dec 4, 2013
+terente P when you discuss so many facets of the religion in one breath, it is going to confuse. There are punishments for crimes, as you say, but a few countries are punishing some of these criminals, and it is in the Shariah, yes. However, that has nothing to do with the fact that Islam has spread to the West and many people believe in it. Arguing about the right or wrong of the religion isn't going to stop ppl from embracing it. Obviously they think it is good or they wouldn't accept it. The sharia is Islamic law and I don't have to apologize on behalf of Muslim countries which practice it. Yes, you can discuss anything because the internet permits you to. That doesn't mean that you are correct. Anyway, you should not take the spread of Islam as a personal insult. It seems you don't know Muslims well enough to have such a bad opinion of them. +terente P
Jane Dughatir
Dec 4, 2013
Why do you want to be afraid of anybody, e.g. you say you are an islamophobe and what's wrong with that? +terente P Plenty, I think.
Jane Dughatir
Dec 4, 2013
+Zaha S could you review some of your previous comments, and think about revising? If you are a pious person, you should not say things which are not in accordance with your professed religion. If you are ignorant of your religion, you should learn more about it. You can comment freely to my discussion and I appreciate comments. But do be careful on the net how you frame your discussions. People are very conscious of Islam's power and also wary of it. We should always say what is right, no matter if ppl don't like it or even fight us about it. That is real freedom, not cowering under pressure of some islamophobes and hiding behind false platitudes. +tvee +terente P
Here I merely asked Zaha if she could review some of her comments. Hardly is that rude. Then “think about revising”. Hardly rude. I explain what is real freedom, “not hiding behind false platitudes”. Yes, I accuse her of that,because that’s what she did in her comments. Hiding and denying FACTS. The Qur’an is a book, it is available to read, and all the people know what it says, or they can certainly find a copy and research it.
tvee
Dec 4, 2013
Reply
+Jane Dughatir Firstly you need to put a mirror to yourself and read my previous post carefully before asking anyone to "..be care on the net how u frame your discussions." I am well aware that most Muslims are Sunnis (85%), but there are Sunnis who follow a more fundamentalist sects/movements like Wahhabism & Salafism. There are Sufis in both Sunni and Shiite branches of Islam. I never once said Sufis are not Sunnis. I'm well aware that Sufi Muslims are not the majority of the total Muslim population, but they are a significant minority especially in a few Muslim nations. "You are saying wrongly, that they are the best Muslims. they are no more kind than my friends.." U have put words in my mouth. Where in my post did I say that Sufis are the best Muslims. Where?!! You seem to believe you have all the right answers to counter argue Zaha S and Terente P. Reality check for you - 'Truth' and 'believe' is ALL a perception - one person's 'truth' and 'reality' is another's 'untruth' and 'illusion'! Say what you want, but don't for a moment try to put words in my mouth or arrogantly tell me what I 'know or don't know'. Peace.
Jane Dughatir
Dec 5, 2013
+tvee I'm sure I was speaking to the other person Zaha S, but just included you as a plus one, sorry for the confusion, or if I made a mistake when I posted the comment. Peace.
(I thought that, first, but then answered him back. However, one or more post/s for Zaha also included a plus and his name, just to allow him to see the discussion; the comment about being careful how she frames the discussion was only meant for her, though I figured the others could also benefit from reading that. It was only in the comment for her and not in a comment for him. Maybe that’s why I got confused about his reply which included my comment to her and not just the comment about his remark, “Firstly you need to put a mirror to yourself nd read my previous post carefull”, was his reaction to my telling Zaha to “be careful how she frames her discussion”.
But I did read and understand his post - Which I will explain now in more details.
He greatly implies that Sufis are good Muslims, etc, but then says I shouldn’t say that he said Sufis are “nice”.??!! WHY?? He is also angry that I say he says Sufis are better than Sunnis, who (many of them) follow a sect or movement which is “fundamentalist” (direct quote – “more fundamentalist” read as “extremist”)
To quote him again, “.." U have put words in my mouth. Where in my post did I say that Sufis are the best Muslims. Where?!! You seem to believe you have all the right answers to counter argue Zaha S and Terente P. Reality check for you - 'Truth' and 'believe' is ALL a perception - one person's 'truth' and 'reality' is another's 'untruth' and 'illusion'! Say what you want, but don't for a moment try to put words in my mouth or arrogantly tell me what I 'know or don't know'. Peace.
Now the previous post he made, which has the comments I objected to originally:
"I'm an Atheist, but in 2012 I was in Turkey & I had a very beautiful conversation (through translator) with an old sufi master. The gentle and compassionate sufi tradition within Islam should be revived and spread. Much of India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia, etc were spread by sufi missionaries. I saw through the sufi master LOVE, PEACE, TOLERANCE & UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD for ALL mankind! It is such a different message from Salafism & Wahabbism traditions which teach a 'us' versus 'them' world. I don't believe in God but u said in a post that the God you worship is the same as the God Christians & Jews and other people worship. That was a beautiful statement of TRUE LOVE that REFLECTS your God in YOU! :)"
He (tvee) said the sufis are the best, right HERE (in the parag above and this one, which are his own words). The Only Islamic tradition he is bolstering in his comment (above) is the Sufi tradition. I was not direct quoting him, even when I said “NICE” and it was just a short paraphrase (so I should have left the quotes out) HE wrote, “The gentle and compassionate sufi tradition within Islam should be revived and spread” He wrote the above to Zaha, not to me. He praises her highly, “That was a beautiful statement of TRUE LOVE…” blah -blah -blah.
He really means it should be spread, because it has always remained in part of the Islamic world, so it doesn’t need reviving but only spreading. He wishes to have Sufism (so called “Islamic tradition” spread) dominate the Muslim world. To burst his bubble, that isn’t ever going to happen, and thank Allah!! A group (or government even) of sufis will do nothing to bring peace all over the world any more than anyone else can, and they have no practical solutions to offer that aren’t already offered by the sharia. Sharia is the only way to ensure that all people have basic human rights, if it is spread. Sufism isn’t going to spread, so we have to concentrate our efforts on teaching Islam properly, so that it does acquire the recognition and respect it deserves. Islam is the Truth and it is good. I hate to be too preachy here, but that is now my only answer to +Tvee, who abandoned the conversation, after calling me a kafir, lol.
I said:
Dec 5, 2013
Yes, you implied that sufis are "kind" and so on, while the majority are then not. That's how your comment came off to me, and probably a lot of people would agree if they read it. That's the way I took it because of how you wrote it. So I'm not apologizing for that.I'm not trying to be arrogant, just telling how I see your comment. +tvee the other comments were primarily for Zaha, which [sic] you by the way gave a lot of praise for, so clearly you are not as educated about what Islam teaches as you are pretending. You both came off as a pair of ignorants, that's my opinion. How you wrote it, comes off as ignorant, all of it. And some of it proves that you are ignorant.
I should have "tvee the other comments were primarily for Zaha, [whom] you by the way gave a lot of praise for..." but I think its pretty obvious, just a slight error. (Revised - Dec. 7th)
Zaha S, asks:
Yesterday 12:15 AM
"What exactly am I being ignorant about?"
I will end Part Two here, and get back to Zaha's question in Part 3. Also, I will leave this thought, I don't believe what she believes about the sharia, and I don't believe that everyone's perception is another's illusion. And obvious "truth stands out clear from error" (quran) Truth is not untruth, that is just nonsense.
And why bolster Sufism alone, there are good Sunnis, many of them (and I am not disputing the claim that most Sufis or even a good majority are Sunnis - they have many strange practices, but for the moment let's say they are Sunnis e.g. Hamza Yusuf is a sufi (or I think he is). Didn't he also meet commendable and good Turkish people who are not Sufis, but practise Islam? Are they all below his expectations and only Sufis pleased him so immensely, he can't say enough (even in block letters) about them? I find this hard to believe. He is just preaching this to promote sufism, not becasue he loves only Sufis.
He seems to like Zaha well enough. And even praised her in a similar friendly fashion.
I am not stating either that he said anything else bad about Sunnis, but saying that "salafist" or "wahhabi" (which is a misnomer which doesn't mean anything) are extremists is also something I take issue with, and very strongly.
(Please Read Part Three to Find out why... next. Yours, J D-N)
