Agnostics by the passage of time

Too Easily Offended?

[Good] morning Jane or good afternoon in Bahrain.

Thanks for another very thoughtful reply.

I don't know Dr. Moore and I'm very willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, that he is an earnest person. I believe he is wrong when it comes to these Koranic verses because I have read them myself. For the life of me I cannot understand what he sees in them, but I don't see what other religious people see in the book of Mormon, Upanishads, many verses of the old and New Testament, or Nostradamus for that matter. I also don't understand why he did not convert to Islam if he feels these verses are the word of God. It strikes me as strange to think that he would think that the embryonic verses are inspired by God but the rest of it is not, particularly those verses that consider certain Christian beliefs, like the divinity of Christ and the death on the cross to be anathema. Where these verses not inspired by God? Perhaps he has been able to finagle a different interpretation of these verses? I have great experience with Christians and Jews who are extremely efficient at interpretive gymnastics such that they can make any passage fit with modern understanding. I was once given a fascinating book by a Jewish Rabbi called the "science of God" by man called Schroeder, who is a very important Israeli scientist. It's amazing how he used general relativity explained this six days creation. I've also listened to a great Christian apologist called William Lane Craig, who has debated many Muslims, use similar interpretive gymnastics to explain away embarrassing passages in the Bible. No doubt Hindus find certain passages of their Scripture to be ecstatically life-changing and I have seen Mormons passionately assert that their book is the word of God.

I do not lump all theists into one bunch except in respect that they all believe that they know the mind of God, through some sort of Scripture. In addition they all claim that religion has changed their lives and given them a sense of the transcendent. Most religions in some way believe that those others are deliberately and malevolently rejecting the truth. Christianity and Islam particularly think that those others are going to rot in hell for all eternity for non-belief.

I watched a video yesterday on YouTube of a popular Islamic person reciting a Koranic verse in front of hundreds of people. He actually has a wonderful voice and just listening to the rhythm I would think it quite beautiful, except when I was reading the translation. He actually got people to weep as they contemplated how Allah is going to punish nonbelievers in hell for all eternity and how believers are going to get whatever their heart wants in the afterlife. The rhythm is beautiful, the content IMO, horrific and tribal.

[When] I left my religion, I found my life so much better. I could look at things honestly without threat of hell. No longer was I terribly concerned about converting people to my religion, but I found myself basically the same person. My life has its trials and tribulations, just like yours, and I still have a great sense of wonder at the beauty of life.

Sent to: Jane Dughatir

********

Hello, Stu, I quite enjoyed the email  because it was at times a sincere effort to think about matters from two dichotomous perspectives. I agree with one thing, and that’s that not all religions have the same take on punishment, the Jehovah’s witnesses don’t believe in a Hell, if I have understood their belief in an afterlife as heaven on earth for some, or maybe all creatures with a soul. Not sure, but it shows that there are sects which dampen down the fearful elements of Godhead, to make belief more palatable to a wider public, but have no grounds in the actual scriptures, or very little, and a lot of hemming and hawing in their semantics. The bible is quite clear on this issue, but people tend not to want the truth because they are very sensitive and their fears reflect the general fears or rejection of central beliefs because of this learned response to the mere idea of punishment.

Do theists all really believe they know the mind of God? If they did there would never be any agnostics. Most agnostics had a religion, which they left to pursue and/or reject any other options. They are in spiritual limbo, like the position into which  Dante put two early Islamic philosophers ( Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd,  not Ghazali, obviously, who was more despised by critics) onto the heights (al-Araaf) in his famous work, because he respected him too much to consign him directly into Hell. (Graham, 2006) Ibn Sina was a drunkard    (Graham, 2006)

according to historical fiction if I can call books like Mark Graham’s, “How Islam Created the Modern World”, an orientalist type attempt to explain the rise and fall of the Islamic Empire.

 

Dr. Keith Moore doesn’t specifically say that he doesn’t believe that there are other passages in the Quran which are believable as well; his refusal to accept Islam, is his own choice, which could be explained with some thought to why people are afraid to change, for example, or because they like the status quo, or they actually believe that there is room in God’s idea of justice for more than one correct religion. This is in fact one way some adamant theists approach religion in general because they don’t want to reject any possibility; but they are unfortunately left coldly alone and uncomforted, like driftwood which eventually gets separated from its fellow travellers, suddenly night falls.
Take care.

This will never happen again!

PARODY -- Who Won, Who’s Next, You Decide?

1 - Once upon a time, in the ghraib... if books could speak.

I’m a Book, Revelation, you cannot deny

If you read (pron. is "red") my verses you would surely cry.

If you hide the truth you will be led astray,

You will then regret your birth and choice, Judgment Day.

***

I’m the bible I’m a book, like you I’m written well,

Not by God but with help from Him, it’s just as swell,

If you know the Lord like me, then you will walk in light,

If you don’t, better believe me, then it’s Hell; it serves you right.


2 - Muslim vs Evangelical Christian

Your rap is nonsense, you’re a moron; you can’t even read

- (Like your brother David Wood) -

I think you were, you are, you’re taking speed.


But you’ll probably never get it, gonna regret it, cause your slow

Qur’an is truth and light and right and never wrong,

***

I’ll tell you what I know about Muhammad and Buraq

How did he go to heaven on a horse with wings, that’s crock?

No, the book isn’t right, its wrong, I have to mock.


Get to the real point cause I’m late for a discussion,

Called “Jesus in the Quran, Muhammad in the Bible".

My notes from the last UN session, "rights of modern women" will impress them.



3 - Muslim vs EDL - extreme debate...

Do you know why Jesus died?

- To forgive your sins -

God needs a sacrifice.

***

Don’t be daft, your EDL, your on a road to Hell (not Paradise)

you need a ticket to heaven, cause you’re weak,

You probably can’t even spell.


I on the other hand know what’s good for man and woman,

Don’t get me started on the role of women (in society);

It’s gonna be a long wait, better get your head on straight.

(Unfortunately for the Muslim, it appears he doesn't know the rights Islam gave to women, lol.)



4 - Spencer vs Nadir Ahmed (this is sad_)

Listening to Yusuf Islam, you think your smart, you’ve got it figured out

Your mother couldn’t love you, your own people are sick and dying,

If Islam’s so great, get the brothers and go stop people crying.


You can’t even find shoes to fit you wear sandals everywhere,

A nightshirt for breakfast, lunch and dinner is formal wear.

***

You people always judge the book by its cover, not the book,

You pretend to be smart, but it's not working out, you're racist as well.


Chapter 9 verse 29 gives you human rights,

You’d rather pay taxes, an arm and a leg, to stay six months in London

- and another six in Israel –



5 - Robert Morey vs a respected brother_ who leaves, after hearing the insults about the respected brother, S. Ali. Too bad, he could have won the debate, it isn't the end of the world, that comes much later...



I’m gonna finish this quick, Shabir Ali, I know about his ****

Our preachers are kinda funny and cool; they learned debate (from Deedat)

And they’re sometimes cruel, even accurate


If you don’t like freedom of speech, then go back to your desert cave,

Terrorists and Mullas, you should be ashamed;

Jesus was a man of peace, he loved to break bread,

Your prophet used a sword, he didn’t own a hammer, now he’s dead.


Who Won, Who’s Next, You Decide?

Ch: 9, V:6 [the Quran]