The post before the post

I revised this Q/A and will link to an older post on the same kind of discussion; enjoy :)

Abe Lincoln's legacy will be in the next post, insha allah.

Q./A.

Good day Jane, thanks for the reply again. I hope you are well.

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although I am an atheist, I was a Christian for 25 years. This is what Christians believe as well. They believe that God created human beings with the ability to know and love him. If God did do this, then it is expected that he would reveal himself adequately to all human beings, particularly if heaven or hell is on the line. But I don't think that we can say that God has done this. There are billions of people today who believe other things than you do about God/Allah. There are billions of people who have lived previously who have believed in the spirits and polytheism. What humans believe about the gods is complex and not totally understood, but it can certainly be said that the most important determinant in this is culture; when and where a person was born.

I also have some experience with the Mormons. One day after they gave me their book, I decided to read. After finishing, I found nothing to make me believe that this was the prophetic word of God. When I told them this in a follow-up appointment, they asked me if I had prayed to God while reading to reveal to me if it was true. I came to understand that these people had had a religious experience where they were confident that this book was inspired by God. I have had my own religious experiences as a Christian that convinced me that Christianity was the true religion. These types of experiences are common to all human beings and I am sure that some pagans had the same experience regarding Zeus, Thor, and Shiva.

It’s also quite bizarre to think that everything that happens is according to God's will. There are 9 million children that die every year before the age of five, before they had ever had a chance to formulate any solid beliefs about a deity. And millions of human beings have died before birth as a result of spontaneous miscarriage. Hundreds of millions of other humans are born with congenital brain defects, so hardly can be expected to formulate correct beliefs about God.

to my mind, these facts are inconsistent with a God that wants to have a relationship with human beings, but quite consistent with religion being a human phenomenon. It is unreasonable to believe that human beings who follow other religions are deliberately being wicked. There certainly are some frauds out there, but the majority of regular people are earnest in their belief. They are not deliberately rejecting Allah and the Prophet; they have just come to believe other things.

it seems quite clear to me, that this world is not governed by any divine will, but by cold impersonal mindless physical forces. This beautifully explains all phenomena in the world from tsunamis, floods, drought, the plague, malaria, birth defects, a world governed by survival of the fittest and dominated by survival of the strongest, the diversity of life. And suffering. IMHO, a loving deity who wants a relationship with human individuals does not.

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my point about the four witnesses is that we have better ways to determine whether adultery occurred. It is not a very practical requirement for adultery because it's almost never going to happen. It is more likely that a rich spouse hired 4 witnesses. In addition three reliable witnesses could be enough. Why not five witnesses?

Finally stoning to death is a horrific punishment for adultery. There are many people who have committed adultery who have reformed themselves to become valuable citizens in the world. My best friend was one of them. If he had been stoned to death his two children and wife would've missed out on a great provider, husband and father. He was suffering his psychological issues at the time when he was in his early 20s.

My point about rape was that Islam has difficulty deciding what rape is. There are many people claiming to know Islamic jurisprudence on this who feel that sometimes the woman is responsible, at least partly, if she is inadequately accompanied or dressed. Apparently Islam feels that men are barbarians and cannot resist women.

Reply – many non-Muslims also say things like this, it doesn’t mean it is okay for a man to commit rape, and most Muslims know that rape isn’t justified because the woman is not properly dressed; many rapists are non-Muslims, I’d say more than likely most are non-Muslims. India at the moment has a big problem with gang rape; the question is obvious – why is it happening? Are all men "barbarians" after all?It seems men there regard women as objects, and many men may well be affected by drugs, alcohol, pornography, and so on. If they are not able to marry or have sex with women, they resort to rape, because it is a gang activity, I doubt it is a group psychosis, but a group activity which has gained acceptance among youth or men there. Obviously, the society has many ills if this is the case.)

in my country, rape is not very common. The vast majority of women live their lives never experiencing it. I think it is far more prevalent in poor countries, like India and Pakistan. Not sure how much rape is reported in some countries and as I said before, we can always make rape very unlikely by chaining women to their homes, but that would[not] increase the quality of lives for women. The vast majority of Western women value their freedom and the ability to make their own decisions.

Reply – Stu, you said you are from America or the west? Where do you actually live and call home, then, because rape happens every five minutes or even more than that in America. I think you are not telling me the whole truth…? I believe it was also, Stu, but I could be mistaken who said his wife was at the Boston Marathon or nearby, when the explosion happened!) Allah knows better than I.

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Actually, when you read the saying, it illustrates that the Prophet was telling men, if they beat their wives they shouldn't sleep with them, which is like a deterrent.<<<<< I

These two above statements reveal to me that you believe that the man has authority over the woman. Do you think men have some sort of special knowledge and moral authority to dictate to women how they should dress? Are women so inferior that they need a man to tell her, with authority to beat her if she doesn't comply?

1) Yes, man has a responsibility to care for and protect his woman, or wife or daughters. 2) I was obviously speaking about the past (that men should beat their wives; is something not done by regular Muslim men anymore, which I speak about elsewhere, probably I mentioned this to him , so I'll check the details of other emails), which is 1400 years ago, if you would pay closer attention when reading, you wouldn’t be asking this question; I am a self-respecting and good woman, therefore, I do take care to dress modestly and believe many women would do so, if they believed it was for their own good; problem is many women believe it is beneficial to dress provocatively, though it is 2013, so they can find a companion who will love them; this is the wrong approach, but they think it will work. Women are raised from childhood to believe that their looks are the most important thing when it comes to finding love. Society also encourages women by the magazines, advertising, fashion shows, etc. to like to dress in the latest fashions and spend their earnings on clothing and makeup, and accessories, so they can be trendy and this will compensate for their feelings of ugliness, shortcomings in appearance or skills, etc. Many women are not following the crowd and are brainy enough to shun at least some of the unnecessary and frivolous spending on new clothing and instead care about more important matters. They also would seem to have more self-respect and dignity than someone who needs to seek approval from others. There are Western women who boycott products or companies they believe exploit women in sexually suggestive ways, or abuse workers (e.g. Calvin Klein becasue of its ads, is sometimes boycotted by individual women, others which employ girls in sweat shops). 3) “No” men don’t have “some sort of special knowledge” and I can’t imagine what you think that I or anyone would think that would be?? Women and men both have their duties to family, society and God. They will also be equally rewarded for their good deeds. There isn’t a huge movement among Muslim women to have the Quran changed, because they understand that Islam says they are equal in the sight of God and before the law. Women wear hijab (the Islamic clothing, a long outer garment or hijab and cover their hair with a veil, not out of fear of the husband, but in obedience to God, who demands it; if they don’t, no one should force them, or abuse them in any case. There are many uncovered women in GCC and also many covered women. Many women have grandmothers who didn’t cover in their youth, but their mothers began to cover and now they also may or may not cover; it is their choice. In Saudi Arabia and Iran women cover as per their government’s laws. In France women don’t wear niqaab as it is banned. Therefore, it is also governments which dictate the type of hijab. Even non-Muslims now can tell women how they should dress, which is definitely not a sign of absolute freedom of choice, either. Whether the government is Islamic or applies some of the sharia, or is a secular or democratic government, women are finding that they are being forced to demand their freedom of choice and conscience. All the power and God’s help to them, I say. Note that in Saudi Arabia, actually, not all women are forced to keep on the face veil, though it is something the government prefers (and it is the law - which is sometimes ignored) women do, as they are asked to abide by sharia law (almost but not quite in every area of life). No non-Muslims are permitted to enter Mecca, but other than that, they are free to travel the Kingdom, with visas. It is as other countries concerned with security so people are required to have jobs and place of employment or a valid reason for being in the Kingdom, or they can be expelled. One might see Americans as well as Indonesians or Chinese living and working in Saudi Arabia, and they do so with respect for the law in most cases.

[A famous female who works in television in Riyadh does not cover, this shows that she is not being abused because she is not covering though she knows it is the law. She also says she is intelligent and understands Islam, therefore the reason for her lack of face veil and the reason for her makeup and hair (she partly covers her hair only) is that she prefers to dress and behave in a manner against the Sharia. Yet she accuses the Sheikh of being extremist and against the rights of women. She should not defend her tendency to exaggerate the govt's crimes against her, when she is able to do so on national television and was not in any way abused (prior to her statements; in the video on YouTub). Whether or not she is still alive is for the audience to answer, I have no interest in the question or her campaign against sharia.]

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well indeed, some of the topics might be irrelevant. I'm not sure that slavery today is irrelevant in the Muslim world. There are some countries in the world that claim to be based on sharia who have not outlawed slavery. It is strange to me that God would condone slavery by giving rules for its management if he knew that ultimately these rules would be irrelevant. Slavery has become irrelevant in most of the world because all humans have come to understand that slavery is abhorrent. Concubinage and, for the most part polygamy, have also become irrelevant for the same reasons.

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Allah permitted slavery in His wisdom, but He revealed to the prophet on many occasions the great reward for freeing slaves. It was also forbidden to make a free person a slave as per the prophet Muhammad’s saying (revise – find direct quote). Yes, it is absolutely the case that all people have come to see that it is a practice of past ages, and most communities, who are modern don’t even think about slavery anymore, because it is so far from our idea of equality and human brotherhood. Islam definitely had something to do with the almost complete eradication of slavery; as I mention, people in the more modern Islamic countries still today express interest to free the remaining slaves in such countries as Sudan or Nigeria, where people often live in desert tribes, away from modern life. It is likely some slave owners are Christians.There are hardly slaves in the cities or towns anymore, though one might be able to find some (How many? I can’t honestly say I know, nor do I think anyone knows, but maybe there is someone who can study this; it would be a worthwhile endeavor for some Islamic nations to do so, maybe one day, they will allot resources to this question). We realize that even Saudi Arabia is not a perfect model of an Islamic nation, and while some people claim that leaders such as Ghaddafi promoted women’s rights in their own country, it isn’t the case, but a false understanding of what he was actually promoting, which was the disrespect and enslavement of women (and men) to his ideology (a kind of socialism). He imprisoned many innocent men and even women and boys, therefore how could it be claimed that he was “elevating” women or promoting “women’s rights”? Nonetheless, Islam encourages freeing of slaves, people free slaves voluntarily or others pay to have the slaves released (pay the price of the slave to the Sayyid (master). There was never a racist attitude in Islam however, and slaves were not only black people. Therefore, it was an economic and societal norm (which was slowly changing) and freedom for slaves necessitated understanding of Islamic teachings; this knowledge spread very far and in the epicenter there were fewer slaves than at any time in history when the Prophet died and the love for his Sunnah meant that people continued to free slaves all the time. Perhaps in some countries this didn’t progress as fast and with the fall of the Islamic Empire, though there was slave trading by Christians (which continued even to the last century in a Westward movement, to America, which was also “necessity” because the slaves helped build the country and were used as cheap labor, etc. their humanity was questioned, and only until very recently in the West the law stated that black person is only 3/5 of a white person. The government (not the Bible) probably along with some encouragement from religious leaders taught that because the bible says that God put a mark on the son of Adam who killed his brother, eg. Cane killed Abel, which was taught in some circles or churches as the origin of black people. Muslims were forbidden from racism, racist remarks or racist attitudes and hatred of people based on race (xenophobia, etc.). No doubt this is in part why Muslims had no animosity or thoughts of enslavement because of race. In Arabia race wasn’t a factor in enslavement, but wars and the capture and necessary development of a system (long ago) necessitated that tribes and societies find a way to deal with their war captives without necessitating killing all the men and boys. People in communities must have thought of the need to use bonds such as chains, and if necessary beating with whips to discipline incompliant or disobedient slaves. Women were easier to control than men because they are weak, and obviously men liked to use women for sex, so that was also part of the social order in many societies long ago. One wonders how people in societies without slavery managed to defeat their enemies and avoid enslaving them. Did they kill almost all their enemies? Did they prefer to let them go after paying money? Or did they have to kill them because there was no other option, and their enemies would sooner or later come back to fight them again, with stronger more determined forces? Or did they make peace with their enemies so that there was no need for retaliation on either side, and how did they accomplish this? I can try to imagine what people long ago would have considered before either agreeing to enslave their enemies or to make peace with them. Even the environmental conditions, whether there was food enough for different tribes or nations (as in American Indian and Canadian native societies long ago, different “nations” or “clans” and “tribes” often differed or competed for food and grazing land, etc) It was probably a matter of survival that they didn’t take slaves but probably killed most of their enemies; maybe they also killed most of the women and children, which is the popular idea we have of turmoil in the “old west” between Indians and white people, and what occurred between many different native Indian groups (tribes or nations).

I definitely have no arguments (which justify) (for) slavery today (in most places) though, it is just that from a purely historical and anthropological perspective I can understand it much better than if I were to merely judge people - whether ancient or modern (modern in the sense that they exist today).

We don’t equate slavery of women with polygamy. It isn’t true that all people agree that polygamy is “abhorrent”, that is your own feeling and belief. Many women today accept polygamy, and I know some. They are happy as co-wives and I have even sat and visited with them, and gone camping with women who were co-wives. Something “abhorrent” would be unnatural, and polygamy isn’t unnatural, despite your dislike of it. You come from a Western or Christian background, so it seems strange and even a hateful practice, but that is your personal feeling and belief, others do not and shouldn’t have to live life exactly as you do, nor accept your personal likes and dislikes as their own; where is the freedom of choice which Westerners and Europeans always speak about? Where is the sincerity and humility? You say your best friend committed adultery and you forgive that, but you cannot understand why some societies and people prefer marriage (which is often a religious covenant and very serious and entered with necessary forethought and care.) There are also times when women prefer their husband to have another wife, whether you can find this even remotely possible or not. The Prophet taught that women and men should take care of their bodies’ cleanliness, to shower after sexual intercourse and to respect lovemaking as a God-given right for both spouses to enjoy, to fulfill their natural desires. Polygamy, like all marriage isn’t something dirty which brings to mind images of sexual perversion or abuse. Many in the west will shake their heads at Muslims or other polygamous groups, but easily fall into adultery, fornication, homosexuality, prostitution, orgies, wife swapping and other sinful, hateful, dangerous or perverted acts. Please don’t talk down to me, it is very annoying. You are not “forceful” you are a very biased individual, as you say “biased”. At times, you contradict yourself.

When you say Muslims have "progressed" do you mean that they have become morally superior to the Quran?

“No” they are not superior in their faith, general ideas, beliefs or actions to the early Muslims nor do they have any other teaching or belief system which is superior to the Qur’an; their “progress” is the same progress which most nations and tribes have gone through, e.g. they have learned to give others their due rights, to respect individuality, to be patient in adversity, to live side by side with others in peace, they follow the laws of the land whether founded on religious or secular laws (e.g. in the GCC there are Islamic family courts, and also secular courts, because not all residents use the Islamic courts and also, secular laws don’t necessarily contradict most of the sharia(Islamic law) such as laws against stealing, drugs, trafficking, rape, physical assault, littering, disrupting the peace, violent protest, etc.) There has been scientific progress, much of it long ago, in the Muslim lands, and now the Ummah (community) is in a state of limbo, with little developments (in science or humanities) for a long time, but there is some signs of small (and also bigger) movements to “environmental protection” as you asked, and other areas of development, social welfare, women’s rights, health and education, which is an ongoing concern, since schools opened in most GCC countries in the 1920’s or so. Christian communities also spread to the GCC from neighboring countries (their homes) and have grown and have their own community and activities. I mention also the support of community groups, such as the Indian groups or the Irish expatriates for their support of the King’s handling of the crisis during the “Arab spring” and protests which turned violent in Bahrain due to the extremism of some of the local people.

The rights of others are an ongoing question, which unlike slavery is always in some state of flux, while slavery has diminished in numbers for centuries. Human rights continues to be an area of concern or interest in general; most countries have some laws which some of the people are in contest with e.g. they want changes to them. It is natural to have conflicts within society as well as with other nations. The important thing to keep in mind is to respect others right to self-determination, that some societies will develop more slowly, and the world has a restricted right to intervene, especially considering that there is a lot of power in the hands of a few. Good should be clear from evil, if nations overstep the clear limits, as defined by modern laws in respect to human rights, then something has to be done; what is done depends on factors (all of which I’m not completely familiar with as a non-expert); the ability for the nation to comply, the situation on the ground, and any number of other considerations. Is it right to immediately invade a country because there is a suspicion that it has nuclear weapons? Is it okay to bomb civilian populations to root out terrorists in another country, considering that the terrorists are far away and no immediate danger? If there are signs or suspicious movements, when and where do you attack the enemy? Etc.

Besides international terrorism, what other significant problems are there, and why does terrorism get the most attention? There is child labor, can we tackle that question as nations and how do we get nations or companies which break the law, to comply with the modern and acceptable ideas of what is permissible, as far as children and work? What about the minimum wage? Do we dictate to other countries what the minimum wage should be, or is that a completely internal matter? How can nations do better to eradicate drugs trafficking and human trafficking? Why did the USA’s “war on drugs” fail? These are just a few of the very important issues nations need to think harder about and come up with solutions. If in an age when slavery was common, yet people began to see it as an evil, especially if racism or sexism was involved, why blame Muhammad, pbuh, for the timing? It is the way the world is; some people, merely due to the environment and their geographical position, e.g. the Sahara or Antarctica might have different ideas of what is right and wrong - maybe it is too hot and dry or too cold and wet to think about anything but how one will find food for the day or mend his house? Modern nations have a much greater responsibility to the rest of the world than did the earlier peoples and nations.(This is the answer to why God left in place a system which later on (much later, in America, they adopted slavery when there wasn't any on the entire continent; there was war and massacres, but no slavery)would be "irrelevant"; slavery hardly exists today, in practise and numbers; of seven billion ppl how many are slaves?  It is amazing that modern men or women who sit for hours in front of their entertainment centers can lob twenty questions about why a man 14 centuries ago didn’t eradicate slavery or amend marriage laws (actually, in some respects, he did both) and completely forbid it forever (because he was doing what God told him to) and yet, they have no qualms about buying coffee from Starbucks and equipment from Caterpillar. You’ve had since world war II to do something about Israel’s’ racism in the Middle East, but what have you done and how long will it take before you realize something has to be done? You want a deity who wants a relationship with you, will come down? God dictates the relationship; He sent a book, which you refuse to examine open-mindedly despite the proofs it contains, then you also reject God even though you once believed, merely because people changed the contents of the book you had e.g. the Bible, or because people are not living up to the dictates of their religion? You are like a child who doesn’t know how to think for himself and ask why about everything; try to formulate some theories of your own that can explain why slavery was or wasn’t abolished forever, 1400 years ago, or something logical (not emotional) about why men are or are not permitted to marry more than one wife. If people have anything new or original to bring to the table, I’ll gladly examine it, as for old prejudices and racist rants, I’m not going to entertain such questions. People can see my videos, comments and read the blog. If you have a question, be considerate of the wording and tone of your question/message or I will ignore it. – I admit sometimes I’m tempted not to ignore such questions, but it is better if I do.

I realize quite well and often vividly (my imagination is good) how people react to Islam’s set of laws, Quranic statement, historical events, and present day Muslims, including the extremism, but I don’t think people who believe differently from Muslims have to change. They have the right and free will, which Allah gave them, to do as they like and believe as they believe. But that doesn’t change my belief that everyone on this earth has the ability to know God/Allah, and that they just have to use their minds and listen to their hearts. That can be qualified; if their minds are closed and their hearts are full of enmity towards Muslims, so that they don’t want to listen, and refuse knowledge, then it is their own fault. I don’t call that Allah’s will - that is their own determination to reject Islam and the Quran. They “will themselves” to reject God, He is always open to their belief in Him. If they just pray for guidance He will definitely guide them, but they shouldn’t pray asking Him to guide them to something which they will only agree with for a little while, because in the future, they will likely figure out (if that isn’t what Allah sent - the guidance He expects all people to follow, not something that claims to be from Him, but is falsehood), and then they won’t find what Allah has destined for them not to find (because they asked for something and prayed for something which He didn’t send). Pray only to be guided to the truth, not a specific religion (other than Islam, which is the truth; though you don’t have to call it by name, you can if you want to) People often are certain that what they believe is the truth, but “there is only one truth” – for certain, one is truly astray when one believes in a falsehood, only a claim to truth.

Nonmuslims complain about immigration today, but there was a time, we vividly imagine it in books like Roots, when the west with Europe and the Arabs earned wealth by transporting and selling black people as slaves to the Americas; literally forcing them to go there, out of complete disregard for their wishes, or even families. They were, before that, free and made slaves. This is one of the practices of old which Islam prohibited – Muhammad, pbuh, said, “………………[editing] ….”

(I must apologize here for not providing a proper quote, it is just that I have many books, but don't know where the hadith/saying I am looking for can be found, if any Muslims (or even non-Muslim) reader can help I would really appreciate it, until I find it I am searching. [I had previously asked for help from an Islamic website, but they turned me down, becasue they only help people (non-Muslims) with dawa; I thought, I'm kind of qualified for their help, but they denied me, oh well...] I will take a break after the next Post, then I will have time to fix some of the missing references or indirect quotes, which need to be direct quotes, etc.(despite the previous setback, I have now found a female scholar willing to help me with islamic knowledge, and references, etc.)   Unfortunately too, I can't do much better as far as the look of the blog, no expertise there!)

DD

Your Gift From Me - Please Open On Christmas

Preliminary report; Devising a Theory about Pro-Islamic Dissenting Independent Voices

Warning: May contain traces of creative writing

Isabella, the Queen of then reigning Italian\Spanish monarch was married at the youthful age of 12 years. (Graham, 2005)

We don’t hear about many Christians, especially fundamentalists, who were married at a young age; WE DON’T HEAR THIS SPOKEN OF EVERY DAY; because non-Muslims only ever speak about this subject in connection with Islam and Muslims.

As I’ve said numerous times, societies around the globe permitted their daughters to marry at a young age; some might have also forced their daughters to marry at a young age, or to marry men they didn’t accept in their heart, or outright hated.

It’s the case that early Christians used to inherit women - women were as property, to be passed from father to son, or from brother to brother, as inheritance property. They were treated as chattel, as a commodity and must have felt humiliated and unloved.

Funny how what Christians or others complain most about Islam is actually what their history has seen for the last 1,900 years. Funny how non- Muslims blame Islam for something which isn’t a part of Islamic history- but is recorded in their own history; such things –the worst of what Christians and others did - aren’t recorded in Islamic history.

Did the Muslims throw out only the details of their marriages to underage girls, or did these never really exist?

Did Muhammad, pbuh, marry a six or seven year old, as many people think; or is there no evidence of this? Christians, atheists, agnostics’ and so on believe that Muhammad married a 9 year old or even younger girl. Some Muslims also think this.

I say Muhammad, pbuh, married a young girl or a “young woman”; today even young girls of similar age are sometimes married. The legal age, (with parental consent) for girls or boys, (if it ever happens), is 14 in Canada.

There are girls with a sexual partner at this young age, who are not married and perhaps putting themselves in great danger. They are breaking the law.

It’s true; the ancient Arabs used to betroth their daughters to men/youth, sometimes even as babes. (Like putting the girl on layaway)After Islam checked the many types of marriage and eliminated all types of marriage except one; the type of marriage we see today in Islam, (not including the mutta of the Shiites);When the Muslim girl was old enough to marry, she was asked to meet her husband-to-be, to decide if he was to her satisfaction; he was also encouraged to look at his wife, to increase attraction to/and love for her; so that when the time for the wedding and preparations for the “honeymoon” period was nigh, the couple would have already had some inkling of their attraction and love, rather than have to meet each other like strangers on the wedding night.(Non Muslims find this scenario in Hollywood films but then it is titillating; television shows sometimes have similar themes; as inspired by Shakespeare or others; I’m thinking of “Taming of the Shrew”- the forced marriage is very entertaining in this play – you might recall when Bruce Willis and Cybil Sheppard reenacted the play as two love interests in an episode of “Moonlighting”.)

Islam permits remarriage, unlike Catholicism - divorce is not prohibited, nor is remarriage frowned upon. Thus, any marriage that is doomed to failure doesn’t mean a sentence of unhappiness until death, or loneliness for never marrying the right person. It is true, that some women can only marry once, (even there are women who never marry, though this used to happen less in the past than it does now), due to their own individual circumstances such as ill health, or because they prefer to live with their children, and maybe men will not marry someone who has many children, (or is older; but this is also a more recent phenomena).Polygamy as well is less common. Due to high dowries, women are not able to find men who will marry them or their fathers won’t permit them to marry men of their choice – as is an evil trend in Saudi Arabia; while they may also insist that their daughter/s give them a portion or all of their salary/ies.

The Qur’an encouraged men to marry the women who were child-bearing; either/both their mothers and/or sisters already/ had children, or they were widowed or divorced women with children- therefore good candidates for having many children.

Women were not married only for their reproductive qualities but due to other “pluses” such as beauty, wealth or lineage; it would not have been encouraged to marry a lady who was beautiful if her personality was foul, or to marry a rich widow if she could not have children for you; neither were completely forbidden; but we can see when some of these qualities can come into conflict with the goals that men in ancient Arabia had; for example, children and large families were necessary and a means of self-defense, and power. Larger tribes could “eat” smaller tribes, therefore it was advantageous to be from a larger tribe; and even possess material wealth; and many fighting men, and young men; because wars often took the lives of hundreds of fighting men. There was warring almost every day, in ancient Arabia, over some issue or problem, or other. Land was sought after and rape and pillage, or slavery (of men and women) also was commonplace.

In the story of Yusuf, AS: he is a youth who fears the guiles of the young court women of the queen; who wants to make him do her bidding. The surah/ch. warns youth to protect themselves from mortal sin.

Islam forbade 9 different types of marriage that were considered by Islamic standards immoral. Also, Islam greatly limited polygamy, reducing the maximum number of wives to four, or less, if men can’t afford that many; if a man can only afford one wife, then that is the prescribed or better number. Islam also forbade men from sharing the same slave women; it was only permissible for one man to take a slave woman, although he could have sexual relations with as many slave women as he could afford to keep (care for) and desired. If a slave woman had a child (“Um Walid”) then, at the time of her master’s death she would be free, even if he had debts (she couldn’t be sold for profit, to pay off his debts, if he were destitute or poor at the time of his death.)

Once a slave is free in Islam, especially a Muslim slave, she couldn’t be retaken as a slave or forced into slavery by another Muslim. BUT during victories in battles or war conquests slaves were often captured, during the Islamic period by other (non-Muslim) tribes, and of course, Muslims also took slaves among non-Muslims. One of the treaties between the Muslims had that if a Muslim slave was recaptured by his non-Muslim owners, that they would be allowed to keep him, but the Muslims’ slaves would not also be returned to the Muslims if they escaped. But the non- Muslim slaves who had run away from their Muslim masters would not likewise be returned to them. Muslims at the time felt sorely, but had to comply with the treaty. Among other things in the treaty were that the Muslims should be allowed to make the pilgrimage to Mecca the following year.(This is a long story, part of which states that Umar, who was to be the third Caliph of Islam, after the deaths of Muhammad, pbuh, and Abu Bakr, r.a., objected and asked the Prophet many questions about the injustice of being prevented from the Hajj, and because he believed the Prophet had said that the Muslims would perform the Hajj that year; during this incident; the fact that when the Muslims had set out for the pilgrimage as the Prophet had intended they were prevented by the non-Muslims, and the aforementioned treaty was signed; later Umar made many reparations; charity and fasting, etc. for his harsh questioning of the Prophet, pbuh, at the time of Hudaibiya.) In the end, even the apparent injustices of the treaty (favoring the pagans) were to the advantage of the Muslims. It prevented fighting between the Muslims ad pagans for a period of ten years; which helped the Muslims grow in numbers and strength.

Non-Muslims speak about this issue of Muslim marriage, as though Muslim parents are callous, cold, unloving ad betrayers of the most heavy trust; the care of their innocent children, beings they have cared for since before their entrance into this cold unforgiving world, especially at that time - the world was barren desert and life was harsh - ready to take a helpless baby if the slightest opening occurred; incurable diseases, typhoid, fevers, malaria, any number of unpreventable diseases (for vaccines at the time had yet never been imagined)

Would the Arabs or the first Muslims have been crueler than other parents in those days?

They were not crueler. Definitely the ancients in all societies didn’t value girls, or females. One of the Sahaba cried when remembering how he had buried his two year old daughter, before Islam; while he threw the dirt onto her small body, she used her little hand to brush the dirt out of his beard, he told.

It was the cruel customs of a bygone era and the bitter memories of the evil murder of a child, which is what Islam from the outset forbade, that made grow men weep bitter tears of unspeakable remorse. There was nothing to do but regret and repent to God, which many men did, to never again do of wickedness society wanted; (nor) to remain loyal to satanic beliefs, customs and rituals; how Satan must have watched from his distance in the blackness of his kingdom in horror at Islam’s successful spread ad eventual dominance in all of Arabia, and beyond.

Satan has soldiers of his own, which he dispatches to sow discord, and spread evil on earth. It was the Muslims who saved Arabia and much of the world from utter hopelessness and a fate worse than death; disbelief.

Aisha’s testimony:

The youthful Aisha speaks in her own words about her love for the Prophet of Allah and His Messenger. Muslims note, that she never spoke any ill word against nor showed any dislike for her husband, peace and blessings unto him.

Anyone who dares to accuse good men and women of crimes (such as what we hear all the time about the Holy Messenger of Islam) should produce definite proof (for their accusations, or keep quiet) I believe Allah said, “I am the Time”, and I believe that it is only the mercy of God (Al-Rahman) that keeps such idiotic people from harm; that in time they will not be able to escape God’s justice or wrath. In Islam, accusations, of infidelity, as well as sexual crimes, are seriously looked upon; a person who accuses a chaste and God fearing Muslim, must bring four witnesses or else definite proof (for example, today there are medical specialists and gynecologists who would examine victims of either rape, or incest. There is no reason to believe, that in ancient times, men had a proclivity to/ fetish or desire for young (underage girls). That being said, it was customary that girls of child-bearing age (meaning they had reached puberty) could be married (they are of the age to want to have\ or desire a partner and sexual relations).This varies a little only from person to person.

It is a fact, that prepubescent children, both girls and boys are not physically ready for sex.

This is how Islam has always treated the sex subject.

I believe I have sufficiently explained this point above.

I also suggest to women in the west, to stop their hate speech against Muslims; it’s obvious that some of these women have been brainwashed into this thinking by the media, and wrong books about Islam Please, also read on.

A general advice for Muslims says, “Do not cause harm, or reciprocate harm”. This applies to women, children, and men equally. There should be no evil done to anyone - Islam doesn’t /nor ever encourages/ed harming children. Therefore it is impossible that the pious and well loved friend of the Prophet, pbuh, Abu Bakr, the Siddiiq of the nation would have allowed his young child to marry when she was not ready or physically mature enough. Although at the time of Tabuk (revising - checking) she describes herself as a “young girl” she had already been married for a while; she was fifteen. She mentions in the truthful narrations, at the time when she was accused of adultery by some hypocrites; the Prophet called her "that girl". Nonetheless she was of childbearing age; it means that she is telling us that she was not fully mature regards all of her behavior; she tells in one of the truthful narrations(Saheeh) that she used to fall asleep while preparing the dough to make bread, and the chickens would eat the dough, while she dozed. This means that she was still “immature” or irresponsible to some extent. This is one of the reasons that Muslims say that she was raised by the Prophet, pbuh. He also educated her, which is one of the duties of a good husband, as many scholars have written in the past and also present scholars write this (specifically about Islamic knowledge (because it is compulsory); all knowledge is equally permissible, and more importantly if it is a benefit to women or the society needs women to study those subjects, or needs women in certain fields, such as doctors, nurses, etc.)

Isn’t it true that girls prepare for marriage, before they get married; they dream about what marriage will be like, they talk with their friends, and they speculate about what their husband will be like. But, it’s also true that things, like cooking and so on, are often not skills women have developed to a good level of “perfection” until several years of experience. It is also true, that Aisha, r.a. was from a wealthy and well respected family; this suggests, that they had many servants or a housemaid, or women who might help preparing or serving the food. All the details, suggest that she was a blessed child, had a healthy and happy upbringing, and only she describes that she was “thin”; this means that naturally, she was not able to gain weight; therefore women of her circle suggested she “eat dates with cucumbers”, which she did. Thereafter she said, she got “fatter”. This shows, that food was readily available to her, that the reason she was thin was natural biology, and that she gained weight after following the advice of some more experienced than herself; it seems that she was not married yet at the time, because she says, that “they “fed her dates and cucumbers. She was growing and lank, so she ate the dates and cucumbers together, to get “fatter”. The incident could as well have happened after she was married, because during the time when she was left behind by the caravan, the “hawdag”or ride she was in, a ride with covering for her to sit, or be able to lie down was placed on top of the camel was lifted, without her inside, but none noticed, she said, because she was still “lightweight”. Maybe she was still growing and was also lank, or she had not grow taller yet, or she was in fact not very tall. She was not heavy at any rate.

We often find, that some ethnicities, or peoples are very short ad smaller than others. There are also some people or races which display extremely taller people. Some nations have tall and short people.

Therefore, while some women can be very tiny, they might marry a large man, does this mean they should be prevented from marrying their choice of husband merely because he is large, ad she is of small stature, or body type?! We see that generally women and men marry, regardless of physical reasons, or body types. Some very short women marry tall men. Also some petite men marry large women, and the reverse often happens. Does this prevent sexual compatibility or cause women any physical discomfort?! These are relevant questions, and also show that seemingly incompatible body types don’t prevent marriage.

Now, in this modern age, many women have caesareans to deliver their babies. Modern technology allows for less infant mortality, and also mother’s health before and after childbirth. Therefore, if children are too large, or a baby’s head is big, the mother may opt for a caesarean. Sometimes emergency caesareans are done, other times women opt for it before delivery. In the past women were not so fortunate; therefore, I think the question of body types had some importance, In the past as well. Definitely, parents would have wanted their child to be mature and physically able to bear children, and go through the pains of childbirth. It has already been mentioned that many children and large families were coveted. Therefore, why would a parent, or father, force an underage girl into marriage, when she was not even physically ready for sexual relations (due to lack of the proper hormones, and the natural production of sexual discharges) – of which Muslim women were more aware, especially detailed in the Saheeh traditions, because this was how Muslim females knew when to begin their prayers after menses; nor would she  have been physically able to bear children. Lastly, the father of Aisha, and the Prophet’s father-in-law and respected friend, had already reason for caution, because the Muslims were a small band of men and women at the time.

The men were only 12 men and 4 women left Mecca at the time of the first migration to Abyssinia. The Muslims only increased by 6 in the 11th year and 6 more in the 12th year. Muslims who travelled to Habasha increased to 102 in the 6th year 19womem ad 83 men migrated to Habasha (Abyssinia). The prophet’s preaching resulted a slow increase In the 11 th ad 12th years, at Mecca during the pilgrimage (he was often jeered at and the pagans tried to prevent him from preaching Islam to those who came for Hajj.) The numbers were only 6, each time. Making 12 new converts, who travelled back to Medina, after the season. Including, the few Muslims who migrated during the first trip to Habasha, 12 men, 4 women, and the total was about130 emigrants. These were the Muslims who migrated to escape persecution and even death. The Muslims remaining in Mecca risked annihilation.

Obviously, there were much fewer men sometimes, which would also have prevented any marriages taking place. It was a trial, but also the “immigrants” as they became know, were very highly esteemed, as well as their people in Medina, who later accepted Islam in large numbers; the “helpers” also guaranteed protection, God willing, to the Prophet and the Muslims who came with him, from Mecca in the 13 th year, 70 men ad 2 women came from Medina to take the pledge ad he reaffirmed their faith In Islam; at that time, they negotiated the expected conditions for immigration of the Meccans to Medina and all relevant important details.(These are detailed I a paper I received several years ago, when I briefly enrolled In an Islamic studies diploma program at one of the known schools of Islamic studies, Bah.)

A famous hadeeth of the Prophet taught the Muslims that the sexual fluids are responsible for the physical characteristics or traits of their children, if the husband’s seminal fluid overpowers the woman’s the she will have a child that resembles him, on the other hand, if her sexual fluid over powers his, the child will resemble her. This is how the Muslims learned about heredity. This can also be applied, of course, to other things such as hereditary diseases such as sickle cell anemia and also mental disorders, which may also have some familial origins. Some diseases or tendencies occur more often, if the parents carry a gene, or have a history (In the family) of such diseases. Sickle cell anemia may prevent marriage of two people, in ‘Islamic’ countries, where there is high incidence of the problem, as it has very serious consequences for overall health ad happiness. This is the most difficult type of anemia due to the severe pain it causes.

Conclusions: hate is the reason for unfounded statements

Due to these very reasonable statements, not farfetched “excuses”, it seems more fair and honest to state unequivocally that Muslims don’t marry, or ever did marry off /or forcibly marry off their female children either because they were unready for marriage/ or because they did not want to marry(a certain person).

Non Muslims speak about Muslims’ relationships (especially between husbands and wives and also between daughters and fathers)as though we have no emotions nor the natural feelings of love for our children. This definitely shows some tendencies In the accusers to “racism” or “Islamophobia” and hatred.

We see that most coverts to Islam are women, sometimes the stats are 10:1, for women: men in some countries. Some times its 9:1, or 5:1. One may ask, why.

To me it shows several important things.

1 – Men in the west are reluctant to accept Islam, or rather downright refuse to learn about Islam.

2 – Women are more open –minded (I will qualify this shortly)

3 – Women believe Islam gives them “freedom” from sexual slavery to men’s appetites (their right to hide their body or face from men and only to reveal to whom they choose of near relatives.)

4 Women In some countries are lagging in the stats compared to new Muslims in other countries; this means that they either are not as willing/or haven’t to/ learn/ed about Islam, or that they believe the lies about Islam.

5 - There is a obvious reason that men lag behind women In the stats (for new Muslim coverts); they like the status quo.

6 – historically, men have been the ones to use women as sex objects; with more time, women have learned to mimic men; also sometimes men are now treated as sex objects, especially I the last 60 years or so, since strip clubs with “chip ad dale” shows, and male strippers came into vogue.

7 – Sex sells, therefore to change the paradigm, means less money from selling sex.

; ie. What will sell, other than sex?

8 - Some Muslims and many more Christians, atheists, agnostics and so on believe that Muhammad married a 9 year old, non-Muslims often say, she was even younger.

This shows that for different reasons, Muslims and non-Muslims believe the same; that Aisha, was a “child bride”, whereas she was not married until she had reached puberty.

Once a girl reaches puberty she is not considered a child In Islam. This can be age 12, some girls even get their periods today, at age 14. Some girls also get their period as early as age 10.

There is something to mention in this regard, and that is that parents are the authority on whether their daughters can be married and when. While Islam teaches that one should not refuse the proposal of a pious man or youth, it doesn’t forbid parents, or even encourage them to marry their young daughters. Also, in Islam, the customary and permissible actions or practices in a society are often very important considerations, and ok as long as they don’t contradict Islam in any way. This is called “urf”. It means that In society the customs are not forbidden and can be followed if they don’t go against Islam.

Parents would/will not normally/in the past (esp.)/present refuse to accept a proposal on behalf of their daughter, but the girl is or should be requested to meet her “fiancé”; if she is satisfied with the proposal she can accept. This doesn’t mean however that marriage immediately takes place. Some people wait for one year before performing the actual wedding. Some families wait until the daughter is older. I myself met a young woman (18,) who had been officially married for 3 years and lived with her family until and after the marriage ceremony and before moving in with her husband. If the papers have been signed and the marriage has take place, still, that doesn’t mean that living together is necessary, until the families are agreed.

9- Many men on the internet are Islamophobes, and most of the people speaking out in debates for or against Islam are also women. BUT we see increased numbers of women (Muslims) speaking up for Islam, whereas men continue to be the major voices (for and) against Islam.

10 – There are many ignorant comments from women, and fewer positive comments from them.

Sometimes we find that there are more non-Muslim men speaking for Muslims’ freedom of religion, but rarely do non-Muslim women do so.

This may seem odd, but it actually makes sense; it shows that women In the west are by far the followers, while men are making up their own minds (for or against the status quo) even though they remain unbelievers in islam.

I’m speaking only about the non-Muslims, (not the Muslims, or Muslim coverts.)

To explain:

80 non- Muslim men say that Islam is misogynistic;

100 non-Muslim women say Islam is misogynistic;

20 non-Muslim men say Muslims are being discriminated against;

0-5 non-Muslim women say Muslims are being discriminated against;

I don’t think I have seen m/any seemingly/ independent minded non-Muslim women who have spoken in favor of Islam or Muslims’ rights;

That is strange or telling, considering that most new Muslim converts are women.

In other words; non- Muslim men think more independently because numbers for and against are 5:1, against Islam and Muslims: for Islam and Muslims

Whereas, from the non Muslim women on the internet, there is no apparent voice for Islam and Muslims, the comments are particularly aggressive and ignorant of Islamic teachings, and say the same things that men’s voices against Islam are saying (A given anyway).

This strongly suggests that (some) non Muslim women are largely (more) against Islam (despite the growing numbers of female converts, usually much more than male converts);

The dissenting voices “for Islam and Muslims” are largely if not almost all men’s voices; I n fact the percentage or ratio (20%, or 5:1, “against Islam” voices: “for Islam” voices, are probably the same as women converting to Islam: men converting to Islam, or slightly more/ less than that. I believe this shows that men in America feel freer to criticize people who promote hate on the internet against Islam and Muslims; it may show more independent research, definitely, I believe that men probably are more independent minded than the women, in Western and Christian societies, even now.

The voices for Islam are 70-90- Muslim women (of course some will be against women’s veil, or some things which are largely personal choices (In the west), and usually Arab women will be more against the covering than new Muslims.

70-90 - percent Muslim men or less than that (again there are issues which may Muslim men, especially non Muslims are against; for example some Muslim men do not want their wives to wear the niqaab or face veil; they do not sometimes even want their wives to wear a head scarf; they do not want many children. They do not agree that men should have more than one wife, and so on. (Many Muslim women dislike the idea of their husband marrying except her, but they may or may not think that it is actually not allowed, or greatly discouraged; some people site hadiths to this effect, which I may explain later, insha allah or for which is elsewhere on the blog )

Muslim men and women show equal numbers In terms of their beliefs about what Islam requires of women, what the relationship is between faith and appearance (dress or styles also), or the fact that equal numbers of men and women (might be according to race or background, i.e. or Muslim or Arab, vs. Muslim covert or non -Arab, though this is not an official study or supported by evidence, this is a preliminary draft only; much study needs to be conducted first. Insha Allah).

My preliminary look at comments on the internet does reveal that Muslims men and Muslim women are equal about expressing their negative feelings or thoughts on some of the long held and “sacred” or “orthodox”(if you will)views on women’s dress - In particular; whether or not it is required to cover partially (the hair) or completely (the face), and how this would affect one’s religion, (not at all, for those In favor of women’s complete rejection of any Islamic veil, for either hair or face, and perhaps even style of clothing, and makeup, would be included; as usually it is women who remove the face veil, or remove the headscarf In public, who will also wear cosmetics and \or mix with men unabashedly. O the right side, this shows that Muslims, me ad women, are equal I terms of dissent (even if it is about aspects which they view as negative I Islam; which shows independent thought y both groups, me ad women I modern Islamic society.) I say this is largely a good thing for Muslims and In the end will result In a positive outcome because Muslims, as they learn more about Islam, are already In a powerful position In terms of numbers “people power” and also, women are not afraid to voice their opinions, and also voice opinions which show a compromising attitude; yes they reject some things but still call themselves Muslims. And secondly, Muslim women show independent thought more than Western women. It is not unusual to find Muslim women who do not practice the Hiijab (veiling of the hair only), yet they speak highly of Islam and the Prophet of Allah, reject the super powers and American interference In their religion; or defilement of the Qur’an or the false statements against general Muslims, or lies about Muslim and Christian relations in the ME. Egyptians for instance, until only recently have been equal citizens of Egypt ad all live according to the law ad enjoy freedom of religion or general freedoms (equally). If is the former rulers who wanted problems between Christians and Muslims (even stirring sectarian violence in the past with their plots). Egypt has been a largely secular society despite the strong religious flavor of some practices, or even architecture; also Christian’s influences, such as Christmas celebrations and New Years’ celebrations (joined by Muslims as well as Christians) exist, too.

The old souqs, cultural or religious dress, cultural food, ancient practices, animal husbandry, sales and business practices, etc. etc. (I try to use my imagination, as I’ve never been to Egypt, and will revise later, lol)

This preliminary study concludes as well, that non-Muslim women are “shut-ins” from “reality”, much more independence of thought exists in non-Muslim men than is apparent in non- Muslim women. Muslim women, those who are new converts, particularly, become very proactive and are generally a positive force for change In their own societies (which reflects their new-found faith).They also show much more independent thought than either non-Muslim men have thus far shown, definitely more than most non-Muslim women.

What is true about Muslim Marriage?

1 –Non Muslims believe women In Islam are not free to choose their husbands, or to refuse a proposal; this is not the case; Muslim women and girls (‘girl’ means a female virgin- never married, regardless of age) can refuse to marry someone they do not want.

2 – Blaming cultural practices on Islam; Indian Muslims follow the customs of Hindus In their marriage practices and dowry, therefore a woman may be killed if her husband’s family does not receive a lot of money or gold form the family of the bride. This is not anything to do about Islam, or Islamic customs.

3- Women cannot be inherited, or given to someone else as sex slaves, or for any other purpose.

4 – The early Muslim women were outspoken, independent, brave, thoughtful, religious, pious, trustworthy, reliable, intelligent, courteous, soft-spoken and loving to their husbands, loving mothers and daughters, obedient to parents, faithful to husbands, and not unchaste, etc.

5– Muslim women today are successful, happy, confident, pious, truthful, independent, loving, caring, helpful, obedient wives, obedient to parents, religious, intelligent, etc.

6 – Muslims have long-lasting marriages; often divorce is less prevalent in Muslim-majority countries.

(This is dedicated to all those people who struggle against any form of malicious hate ad bigotry, be they Muslims or non-Muslims.)

Yusuf Estes Tells Personal Experience

When first asked the same question many Muslims get asked, "Why would you follow a man who was a ...?" and so on, he got very angry, and took off his jacket, and told the Christian Arab to repeat the question; actually he said, he told him, "Was the question a rhetorical one...?", to which the Christian said, "Yes, rhetorical, yes..." because he believed Yusuf Estes was about to beat the living daylights out of him.

Some Muslims told Yusuf Estes then, the story was "funny" (ha-ha, funny, not weird funny), but that his reaction was wrong. He had given in to the devil, the devil had won the battle.. But the devil didn't win the war...

Yusuf Estes is one of the most famous names in Islamic propagation today. Because 1) he knows proper English 2) his preaching is original 3) he is truthful 4) he relies on authentic sources 5) he never gets physical with anyone, after that Christian Arab, lol. 6)he does it for the sake of Allah, not for money.

I had tears in my eyes today, tears of joy, reading Yusuf Estes blog. I love him. Everyone should love Yusuf Estes, Allah bless him. Allah bless his family, too.

Here is a must link for my readers, followers on google and anyone who comes to my site, insha Allah.

God bless.

http://www.justaskislam.com/182/ayesha-child-bride/