The post before the post

I revised this Q/A and will link to an older post on the same kind of discussion; enjoy :)

Abe Lincoln's legacy will be in the next post, insha allah.

Q./A.

Good day Jane, thanks for the reply again. I hope you are well.

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although I am an atheist, I was a Christian for 25 years. This is what Christians believe as well. They believe that God created human beings with the ability to know and love him. If God did do this, then it is expected that he would reveal himself adequately to all human beings, particularly if heaven or hell is on the line. But I don't think that we can say that God has done this. There are billions of people today who believe other things than you do about God/Allah. There are billions of people who have lived previously who have believed in the spirits and polytheism. What humans believe about the gods is complex and not totally understood, but it can certainly be said that the most important determinant in this is culture; when and where a person was born.

I also have some experience with the Mormons. One day after they gave me their book, I decided to read. After finishing, I found nothing to make me believe that this was the prophetic word of God. When I told them this in a follow-up appointment, they asked me if I had prayed to God while reading to reveal to me if it was true. I came to understand that these people had had a religious experience where they were confident that this book was inspired by God. I have had my own religious experiences as a Christian that convinced me that Christianity was the true religion. These types of experiences are common to all human beings and I am sure that some pagans had the same experience regarding Zeus, Thor, and Shiva.

It’s also quite bizarre to think that everything that happens is according to God's will. There are 9 million children that die every year before the age of five, before they had ever had a chance to formulate any solid beliefs about a deity. And millions of human beings have died before birth as a result of spontaneous miscarriage. Hundreds of millions of other humans are born with congenital brain defects, so hardly can be expected to formulate correct beliefs about God.

to my mind, these facts are inconsistent with a God that wants to have a relationship with human beings, but quite consistent with religion being a human phenomenon. It is unreasonable to believe that human beings who follow other religions are deliberately being wicked. There certainly are some frauds out there, but the majority of regular people are earnest in their belief. They are not deliberately rejecting Allah and the Prophet; they have just come to believe other things.

it seems quite clear to me, that this world is not governed by any divine will, but by cold impersonal mindless physical forces. This beautifully explains all phenomena in the world from tsunamis, floods, drought, the plague, malaria, birth defects, a world governed by survival of the fittest and dominated by survival of the strongest, the diversity of life. And suffering. IMHO, a loving deity who wants a relationship with human individuals does not.

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my point about the four witnesses is that we have better ways to determine whether adultery occurred. It is not a very practical requirement for adultery because it's almost never going to happen. It is more likely that a rich spouse hired 4 witnesses. In addition three reliable witnesses could be enough. Why not five witnesses?

Finally stoning to death is a horrific punishment for adultery. There are many people who have committed adultery who have reformed themselves to become valuable citizens in the world. My best friend was one of them. If he had been stoned to death his two children and wife would've missed out on a great provider, husband and father. He was suffering his psychological issues at the time when he was in his early 20s.

My point about rape was that Islam has difficulty deciding what rape is. There are many people claiming to know Islamic jurisprudence on this who feel that sometimes the woman is responsible, at least partly, if she is inadequately accompanied or dressed. Apparently Islam feels that men are barbarians and cannot resist women.

Reply – many non-Muslims also say things like this, it doesn’t mean it is okay for a man to commit rape, and most Muslims know that rape isn’t justified because the woman is not properly dressed; many rapists are non-Muslims, I’d say more than likely most are non-Muslims. India at the moment has a big problem with gang rape; the question is obvious – why is it happening? Are all men "barbarians" after all?It seems men there regard women as objects, and many men may well be affected by drugs, alcohol, pornography, and so on. If they are not able to marry or have sex with women, they resort to rape, because it is a gang activity, I doubt it is a group psychosis, but a group activity which has gained acceptance among youth or men there. Obviously, the society has many ills if this is the case.)

in my country, rape is not very common. The vast majority of women live their lives never experiencing it. I think it is far more prevalent in poor countries, like India and Pakistan. Not sure how much rape is reported in some countries and as I said before, we can always make rape very unlikely by chaining women to their homes, but that would[not] increase the quality of lives for women. The vast majority of Western women value their freedom and the ability to make their own decisions.

Reply – Stu, you said you are from America or the west? Where do you actually live and call home, then, because rape happens every five minutes or even more than that in America. I think you are not telling me the whole truth…? I believe it was also, Stu, but I could be mistaken who said his wife was at the Boston Marathon or nearby, when the explosion happened!) Allah knows better than I.

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Actually, when you read the saying, it illustrates that the Prophet was telling men, if they beat their wives they shouldn't sleep with them, which is like a deterrent.<<<<< I

These two above statements reveal to me that you believe that the man has authority over the woman. Do you think men have some sort of special knowledge and moral authority to dictate to women how they should dress? Are women so inferior that they need a man to tell her, with authority to beat her if she doesn't comply?

1) Yes, man has a responsibility to care for and protect his woman, or wife or daughters. 2) I was obviously speaking about the past (that men should beat their wives; is something not done by regular Muslim men anymore, which I speak about elsewhere, probably I mentioned this to him , so I'll check the details of other emails), which is 1400 years ago, if you would pay closer attention when reading, you wouldn’t be asking this question; I am a self-respecting and good woman, therefore, I do take care to dress modestly and believe many women would do so, if they believed it was for their own good; problem is many women believe it is beneficial to dress provocatively, though it is 2013, so they can find a companion who will love them; this is the wrong approach, but they think it will work. Women are raised from childhood to believe that their looks are the most important thing when it comes to finding love. Society also encourages women by the magazines, advertising, fashion shows, etc. to like to dress in the latest fashions and spend their earnings on clothing and makeup, and accessories, so they can be trendy and this will compensate for their feelings of ugliness, shortcomings in appearance or skills, etc. Many women are not following the crowd and are brainy enough to shun at least some of the unnecessary and frivolous spending on new clothing and instead care about more important matters. They also would seem to have more self-respect and dignity than someone who needs to seek approval from others. There are Western women who boycott products or companies they believe exploit women in sexually suggestive ways, or abuse workers (e.g. Calvin Klein becasue of its ads, is sometimes boycotted by individual women, others which employ girls in sweat shops). 3) “No” men don’t have “some sort of special knowledge” and I can’t imagine what you think that I or anyone would think that would be?? Women and men both have their duties to family, society and God. They will also be equally rewarded for their good deeds. There isn’t a huge movement among Muslim women to have the Quran changed, because they understand that Islam says they are equal in the sight of God and before the law. Women wear hijab (the Islamic clothing, a long outer garment or hijab and cover their hair with a veil, not out of fear of the husband, but in obedience to God, who demands it; if they don’t, no one should force them, or abuse them in any case. There are many uncovered women in GCC and also many covered women. Many women have grandmothers who didn’t cover in their youth, but their mothers began to cover and now they also may or may not cover; it is their choice. In Saudi Arabia and Iran women cover as per their government’s laws. In France women don’t wear niqaab as it is banned. Therefore, it is also governments which dictate the type of hijab. Even non-Muslims now can tell women how they should dress, which is definitely not a sign of absolute freedom of choice, either. Whether the government is Islamic or applies some of the sharia, or is a secular or democratic government, women are finding that they are being forced to demand their freedom of choice and conscience. All the power and God’s help to them, I say. Note that in Saudi Arabia, actually, not all women are forced to keep on the face veil, though it is something the government prefers (and it is the law - which is sometimes ignored) women do, as they are asked to abide by sharia law (almost but not quite in every area of life). No non-Muslims are permitted to enter Mecca, but other than that, they are free to travel the Kingdom, with visas. It is as other countries concerned with security so people are required to have jobs and place of employment or a valid reason for being in the Kingdom, or they can be expelled. One might see Americans as well as Indonesians or Chinese living and working in Saudi Arabia, and they do so with respect for the law in most cases.

[A famous female who works in television in Riyadh does not cover, this shows that she is not being abused because she is not covering though she knows it is the law. She also says she is intelligent and understands Islam, therefore the reason for her lack of face veil and the reason for her makeup and hair (she partly covers her hair only) is that she prefers to dress and behave in a manner against the Sharia. Yet she accuses the Sheikh of being extremist and against the rights of women. She should not defend her tendency to exaggerate the govt's crimes against her, when she is able to do so on national television and was not in any way abused (prior to her statements; in the video on YouTub). Whether or not she is still alive is for the audience to answer, I have no interest in the question or her campaign against sharia.]

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well indeed, some of the topics might be irrelevant. I'm not sure that slavery today is irrelevant in the Muslim world. There are some countries in the world that claim to be based on sharia who have not outlawed slavery. It is strange to me that God would condone slavery by giving rules for its management if he knew that ultimately these rules would be irrelevant. Slavery has become irrelevant in most of the world because all humans have come to understand that slavery is abhorrent. Concubinage and, for the most part polygamy, have also become irrelevant for the same reasons.

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Allah permitted slavery in His wisdom, but He revealed to the prophet on many occasions the great reward for freeing slaves. It was also forbidden to make a free person a slave as per the prophet Muhammad’s saying (revise – find direct quote). Yes, it is absolutely the case that all people have come to see that it is a practice of past ages, and most communities, who are modern don’t even think about slavery anymore, because it is so far from our idea of equality and human brotherhood. Islam definitely had something to do with the almost complete eradication of slavery; as I mention, people in the more modern Islamic countries still today express interest to free the remaining slaves in such countries as Sudan or Nigeria, where people often live in desert tribes, away from modern life. It is likely some slave owners are Christians.There are hardly slaves in the cities or towns anymore, though one might be able to find some (How many? I can’t honestly say I know, nor do I think anyone knows, but maybe there is someone who can study this; it would be a worthwhile endeavor for some Islamic nations to do so, maybe one day, they will allot resources to this question). We realize that even Saudi Arabia is not a perfect model of an Islamic nation, and while some people claim that leaders such as Ghaddafi promoted women’s rights in their own country, it isn’t the case, but a false understanding of what he was actually promoting, which was the disrespect and enslavement of women (and men) to his ideology (a kind of socialism). He imprisoned many innocent men and even women and boys, therefore how could it be claimed that he was “elevating” women or promoting “women’s rights”? Nonetheless, Islam encourages freeing of slaves, people free slaves voluntarily or others pay to have the slaves released (pay the price of the slave to the Sayyid (master). There was never a racist attitude in Islam however, and slaves were not only black people. Therefore, it was an economic and societal norm (which was slowly changing) and freedom for slaves necessitated understanding of Islamic teachings; this knowledge spread very far and in the epicenter there were fewer slaves than at any time in history when the Prophet died and the love for his Sunnah meant that people continued to free slaves all the time. Perhaps in some countries this didn’t progress as fast and with the fall of the Islamic Empire, though there was slave trading by Christians (which continued even to the last century in a Westward movement, to America, which was also “necessity” because the slaves helped build the country and were used as cheap labor, etc. their humanity was questioned, and only until very recently in the West the law stated that black person is only 3/5 of a white person. The government (not the Bible) probably along with some encouragement from religious leaders taught that because the bible says that God put a mark on the son of Adam who killed his brother, eg. Cane killed Abel, which was taught in some circles or churches as the origin of black people. Muslims were forbidden from racism, racist remarks or racist attitudes and hatred of people based on race (xenophobia, etc.). No doubt this is in part why Muslims had no animosity or thoughts of enslavement because of race. In Arabia race wasn’t a factor in enslavement, but wars and the capture and necessary development of a system (long ago) necessitated that tribes and societies find a way to deal with their war captives without necessitating killing all the men and boys. People in communities must have thought of the need to use bonds such as chains, and if necessary beating with whips to discipline incompliant or disobedient slaves. Women were easier to control than men because they are weak, and obviously men liked to use women for sex, so that was also part of the social order in many societies long ago. One wonders how people in societies without slavery managed to defeat their enemies and avoid enslaving them. Did they kill almost all their enemies? Did they prefer to let them go after paying money? Or did they have to kill them because there was no other option, and their enemies would sooner or later come back to fight them again, with stronger more determined forces? Or did they make peace with their enemies so that there was no need for retaliation on either side, and how did they accomplish this? I can try to imagine what people long ago would have considered before either agreeing to enslave their enemies or to make peace with them. Even the environmental conditions, whether there was food enough for different tribes or nations (as in American Indian and Canadian native societies long ago, different “nations” or “clans” and “tribes” often differed or competed for food and grazing land, etc) It was probably a matter of survival that they didn’t take slaves but probably killed most of their enemies; maybe they also killed most of the women and children, which is the popular idea we have of turmoil in the “old west” between Indians and white people, and what occurred between many different native Indian groups (tribes or nations).

I definitely have no arguments (which justify) (for) slavery today (in most places) though, it is just that from a purely historical and anthropological perspective I can understand it much better than if I were to merely judge people - whether ancient or modern (modern in the sense that they exist today).

We don’t equate slavery of women with polygamy. It isn’t true that all people agree that polygamy is “abhorrent”, that is your own feeling and belief. Many women today accept polygamy, and I know some. They are happy as co-wives and I have even sat and visited with them, and gone camping with women who were co-wives. Something “abhorrent” would be unnatural, and polygamy isn’t unnatural, despite your dislike of it. You come from a Western or Christian background, so it seems strange and even a hateful practice, but that is your personal feeling and belief, others do not and shouldn’t have to live life exactly as you do, nor accept your personal likes and dislikes as their own; where is the freedom of choice which Westerners and Europeans always speak about? Where is the sincerity and humility? You say your best friend committed adultery and you forgive that, but you cannot understand why some societies and people prefer marriage (which is often a religious covenant and very serious and entered with necessary forethought and care.) There are also times when women prefer their husband to have another wife, whether you can find this even remotely possible or not. The Prophet taught that women and men should take care of their bodies’ cleanliness, to shower after sexual intercourse and to respect lovemaking as a God-given right for both spouses to enjoy, to fulfill their natural desires. Polygamy, like all marriage isn’t something dirty which brings to mind images of sexual perversion or abuse. Many in the west will shake their heads at Muslims or other polygamous groups, but easily fall into adultery, fornication, homosexuality, prostitution, orgies, wife swapping and other sinful, hateful, dangerous or perverted acts. Please don’t talk down to me, it is very annoying. You are not “forceful” you are a very biased individual, as you say “biased”. At times, you contradict yourself.

When you say Muslims have "progressed" do you mean that they have become morally superior to the Quran?

“No” they are not superior in their faith, general ideas, beliefs or actions to the early Muslims nor do they have any other teaching or belief system which is superior to the Qur’an; their “progress” is the same progress which most nations and tribes have gone through, e.g. they have learned to give others their due rights, to respect individuality, to be patient in adversity, to live side by side with others in peace, they follow the laws of the land whether founded on religious or secular laws (e.g. in the GCC there are Islamic family courts, and also secular courts, because not all residents use the Islamic courts and also, secular laws don’t necessarily contradict most of the sharia(Islamic law) such as laws against stealing, drugs, trafficking, rape, physical assault, littering, disrupting the peace, violent protest, etc.) There has been scientific progress, much of it long ago, in the Muslim lands, and now the Ummah (community) is in a state of limbo, with little developments (in science or humanities) for a long time, but there is some signs of small (and also bigger) movements to “environmental protection” as you asked, and other areas of development, social welfare, women’s rights, health and education, which is an ongoing concern, since schools opened in most GCC countries in the 1920’s or so. Christian communities also spread to the GCC from neighboring countries (their homes) and have grown and have their own community and activities. I mention also the support of community groups, such as the Indian groups or the Irish expatriates for their support of the King’s handling of the crisis during the “Arab spring” and protests which turned violent in Bahrain due to the extremism of some of the local people.

The rights of others are an ongoing question, which unlike slavery is always in some state of flux, while slavery has diminished in numbers for centuries. Human rights continues to be an area of concern or interest in general; most countries have some laws which some of the people are in contest with e.g. they want changes to them. It is natural to have conflicts within society as well as with other nations. The important thing to keep in mind is to respect others right to self-determination, that some societies will develop more slowly, and the world has a restricted right to intervene, especially considering that there is a lot of power in the hands of a few. Good should be clear from evil, if nations overstep the clear limits, as defined by modern laws in respect to human rights, then something has to be done; what is done depends on factors (all of which I’m not completely familiar with as a non-expert); the ability for the nation to comply, the situation on the ground, and any number of other considerations. Is it right to immediately invade a country because there is a suspicion that it has nuclear weapons? Is it okay to bomb civilian populations to root out terrorists in another country, considering that the terrorists are far away and no immediate danger? If there are signs or suspicious movements, when and where do you attack the enemy? Etc.

Besides international terrorism, what other significant problems are there, and why does terrorism get the most attention? There is child labor, can we tackle that question as nations and how do we get nations or companies which break the law, to comply with the modern and acceptable ideas of what is permissible, as far as children and work? What about the minimum wage? Do we dictate to other countries what the minimum wage should be, or is that a completely internal matter? How can nations do better to eradicate drugs trafficking and human trafficking? Why did the USA’s “war on drugs” fail? These are just a few of the very important issues nations need to think harder about and come up with solutions. If in an age when slavery was common, yet people began to see it as an evil, especially if racism or sexism was involved, why blame Muhammad, pbuh, for the timing? It is the way the world is; some people, merely due to the environment and their geographical position, e.g. the Sahara or Antarctica might have different ideas of what is right and wrong - maybe it is too hot and dry or too cold and wet to think about anything but how one will find food for the day or mend his house? Modern nations have a much greater responsibility to the rest of the world than did the earlier peoples and nations.(This is the answer to why God left in place a system which later on (much later, in America, they adopted slavery when there wasn't any on the entire continent; there was war and massacres, but no slavery)would be "irrelevant"; slavery hardly exists today, in practise and numbers; of seven billion ppl how many are slaves?  It is amazing that modern men or women who sit for hours in front of their entertainment centers can lob twenty questions about why a man 14 centuries ago didn’t eradicate slavery or amend marriage laws (actually, in some respects, he did both) and completely forbid it forever (because he was doing what God told him to) and yet, they have no qualms about buying coffee from Starbucks and equipment from Caterpillar. You’ve had since world war II to do something about Israel’s’ racism in the Middle East, but what have you done and how long will it take before you realize something has to be done? You want a deity who wants a relationship with you, will come down? God dictates the relationship; He sent a book, which you refuse to examine open-mindedly despite the proofs it contains, then you also reject God even though you once believed, merely because people changed the contents of the book you had e.g. the Bible, or because people are not living up to the dictates of their religion? You are like a child who doesn’t know how to think for himself and ask why about everything; try to formulate some theories of your own that can explain why slavery was or wasn’t abolished forever, 1400 years ago, or something logical (not emotional) about why men are or are not permitted to marry more than one wife. If people have anything new or original to bring to the table, I’ll gladly examine it, as for old prejudices and racist rants, I’m not going to entertain such questions. People can see my videos, comments and read the blog. If you have a question, be considerate of the wording and tone of your question/message or I will ignore it. – I admit sometimes I’m tempted not to ignore such questions, but it is better if I do.

I realize quite well and often vividly (my imagination is good) how people react to Islam’s set of laws, Quranic statement, historical events, and present day Muslims, including the extremism, but I don’t think people who believe differently from Muslims have to change. They have the right and free will, which Allah gave them, to do as they like and believe as they believe. But that doesn’t change my belief that everyone on this earth has the ability to know God/Allah, and that they just have to use their minds and listen to their hearts. That can be qualified; if their minds are closed and their hearts are full of enmity towards Muslims, so that they don’t want to listen, and refuse knowledge, then it is their own fault. I don’t call that Allah’s will - that is their own determination to reject Islam and the Quran. They “will themselves” to reject God, He is always open to their belief in Him. If they just pray for guidance He will definitely guide them, but they shouldn’t pray asking Him to guide them to something which they will only agree with for a little while, because in the future, they will likely figure out (if that isn’t what Allah sent - the guidance He expects all people to follow, not something that claims to be from Him, but is falsehood), and then they won’t find what Allah has destined for them not to find (because they asked for something and prayed for something which He didn’t send). Pray only to be guided to the truth, not a specific religion (other than Islam, which is the truth; though you don’t have to call it by name, you can if you want to) People often are certain that what they believe is the truth, but “there is only one truth” – for certain, one is truly astray when one believes in a falsehood, only a claim to truth.

Nonmuslims complain about immigration today, but there was a time, we vividly imagine it in books like Roots, when the west with Europe and the Arabs earned wealth by transporting and selling black people as slaves to the Americas; literally forcing them to go there, out of complete disregard for their wishes, or even families. They were, before that, free and made slaves. This is one of the practices of old which Islam prohibited – Muhammad, pbuh, said, “………………[editing] ….”

(I must apologize here for not providing a proper quote, it is just that I have many books, but don't know where the hadith/saying I am looking for can be found, if any Muslims (or even non-Muslim) reader can help I would really appreciate it, until I find it I am searching. [I had previously asked for help from an Islamic website, but they turned me down, becasue they only help people (non-Muslims) with dawa; I thought, I'm kind of qualified for their help, but they denied me, oh well...] I will take a break after the next Post, then I will have time to fix some of the missing references or indirect quotes, which need to be direct quotes, etc.(despite the previous setback, I have now found a female scholar willing to help me with islamic knowledge, and references, etc.)   Unfortunately too, I can't do much better as far as the look of the blog, no expertise there!)

DD

RE: Email about Islam, my response - 1

I'll try to be shorter than you, lol,

 Does Islam Permit Discrimination or Oppression?
Does Islam Permit Discrimination or Racism?

the Quran and Shariah still apply, is all I said. It is flexible but we don't arbitaririly change laws; as long as something isn't forbidden we don't make it forbidden, and something is impermissible, we don't make it permissible. There is a lot of room to live comfortably without fear of oppression in Islam. (Revised)

It is okay for scholars or Muslims to disagree, but only people educated in Fiqh and such can make rulings, they must be proper scholars. Once we have rulings, we can apply in our lives, and we understand that sometimes there is a difference of opinion as well, and we don't necessarily pick and choose, but we are better advised (by scholars) to use prudence, stick with a good scholar or the group of scholars we trust and whose advise and rulings make the most sense to us.

We can't make up our own rulings because we aren't qualified. That's how we can get on with our lives, otherwise we wouldn't sometimes know what is okay to do, etc.

I am talking about important and mundane things, too. For example, there are all topics which get discussed, questions of all kinds are asked, and we need guidance.

I don't think in any society most people just do whatever they feel like without at least knowing that if they do somehting that is not acceptable to the society at least, that they wouldn't be punished or have some consequences to pay. Laws or rules are everywhere, no matter what country.

We all choose how to live and what to abide by. That's why I don't really believe in preaching, but only telling how I think things are. I believe shariah is basically the same since Muhammad, pbuh, and i am glad that it doesn't have to change, so I know what I do to keep within guidelines of the religion.

Slavery was not forbidden completely because of the age in which Islam was revealed, but the Prophet greatly encouraged to let slaves free, which people did a lot, and also his "sunnah" is what we do. Also, the most backwards nations are the ones where ppl still have slaves, not in the ME. This is why if Muslims commit a grave sin, or want reward they are told by scholars here to buy the freedom of slaves in those nations, e.g. in Africa, etc. Sudan still has some, and some others, I don't know exact places.

Just as you have laws in your country, whether secular or religious, (secular in your case) so I have laws I must abide by, and I have accepted that,not blindly but willingly.

I don't think Jews or Christians should have power over anybody, except if they are in their own countries, but what does that mean? You make it sound pretty sinister. And Muslims do okay in their own countries, which is why many good things exist in our societies, even though a lot has changed to bring evil, too e.g. internet is one thing. As I said, everywhere there can be freedom, development can happen, and cooperation or coexistence. We have many non-Muslims in Muslim countries who are pleased to be here. It is sad that there are many who may be oppressed in some spheres of life, or are unhappy. Many Muslims also are having difficulties, due to poverty, sickness, or wars, and oppression, in many countries, even in the West (in recent years).

Muslims had been much fairer in the past to the People of the Book than many people give them credit for. Esp. because we do know what happened to the Jews in Europe when Christians took over. So I don't agree that Christians or Jews can do any better in fact.In time we will see more clearly how the secular governments may also falter if they do not regain their standing as people who believe in and promote human rights and freedoms for all. I believe (about Muslims now) the opposite than what has occured (with the downfall of islamic countries) will eventually happen, and Muslims will in their own way be able to elevate themselves to show a more positive face and more positive outcomes.

Does Islam Permit Discrimination or Oppression?
Islam forbade racism.

Emails Asking about Islam - 1

Re: Reply to your comment on: Douglas Murray - (SML) Are Muslims Too Easily Offended?

good Day Jane. Thanks for the reply. I hope you are well.

I thank you for sharing some of your experience. It sounds as though your parents love you. I am sure there are many things involved in making us who we are. Our genes, no doubt, confer onto us certain proclivities, but no one would question the importance of affirming parents.

I have no doubt as well, that your religion has changed some of your thoughts about things, and certain behaviors. The individual religious experience is fascinating and I am familiar with it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "preset ideas about Islam and Muslims". I will admit however that I am a biased person. I try my best however to limit bias as much as possible. As a Christian, I was quite biased to see the world a certain way, consistent with my religion. As a Christian I thought of Islam as a wayward religion that needed to be set right ( lol) . As a Westerner, my view of Islam has been too heavily influenced by extreme versions of it, that seem to show up in the news far too often ( and for good reason!).

My first encounter with a Muslim occurred about 20 years ago. I was working with a national from Saudi Arabia. We had a discussion about religion. We were both scientifically minded so he gave me a book called the Bible, the Koran, and science by a man called Maurice Buccaille. I read it with interest.He was a good man.

Following 911, I read a couple of books about Islam by Karen Armstrong, who portrays Islam in a favorable light.

About two years ago I decided to read the Koran myself. I tried to read it in the nonbiased way. I must say, that it did not impress me very much. It seemed very repetitive and the main theme seems to be that God is one and that those who believe will inherit heaven and those who disbelieve will be tortured forever in hell. Believers are the best of people and nonbelievers are the worst of people.

It talks about the prophet of God as well as other prophets like Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Noah, Isaac, Sampson, and a couple of other ones I did not recognize.

Faithful men will we inherit virgins and men are allowed up to four wives and can have sex with "what his right hand owns". Mohammed himself apparently can have more wives . Women appear to be inferior to men, at least intellectually and as witnesses.

A man may discipline his wife by refusing his bed to her and if that doesn't work ( lol) he may physically punish her. Divorce is quite easy to attain. God apparently forbids the eating of pork. There's a lot of stuff regarding Christians and Jews, some which seem favorable and others describing them as quite pitiful. Sura 9 is quite distressing.

There is some good stuff. There is the protection of nonbelievers ( so that they might convert) and admonitions to be good to orphans. it is a quite noble and good act to free slaves.

There is some scientific stuff in it that some scholars elaborate on. None of it seemed to be necessarily written by the creator of the universe. I'm amazed at how much liberal interpretation of these verses goes on.

like all books, particularly holy books, it appears to be quite subject to human (mis)-interpretation.

then there are the Hadith and sunnah. Some of these are admirable, but others astonishingly disturbing.

As it is now, I have no idea how anyone would believe that all of this is inspired by the creator of the universe, which is why I am interested in the ideas of people like you. I have no doubt that you are an earnest person who feels in touch with something transcendent.

I am very concerned about the impact of religion. I'm not sure that religion is consistent with liberal democracy. I think there is a clash of ideas. Liberal democracy asserts that all humans are equal under the law and should be allowed to live his or her life the way he or she wants to, provided it does not interfere with the next person to do the same. It protects minorities, free speech. He challenges authority and requires empirical validation of any truth claim.

Anyways, I have enjoyed our discussion.

Emails Asking About Islam -2

Does Islam Discriminate Against Women or Girls?

Re: Reply to your comment on: Douglas Murray - (SML) Are Muslims Too Easily Offended?

Hi again Jane.


Please feel free to use my thought on your blog. I would appreciate it if you would not change them, LOL.

I think you did mention something to the effect that the moral code outlined in the Koran might only apply to people from that day, rather than today. The Koran for instance seems to have no objection to slavery. I will admit that the freeing of slaves was a generous act, but the institution itself was practiced and seems to be condoned by the Koran and the Hadith. There are very few Muslims today who would agree with slavery. Unfortunately there still are some Islamic people and countries who have not outlawed slavery because of the Koran. There are also very few Muslim people who would marry prepubescent children. Unfortunately there are some who do.


I do believe that 4 witnesses for adultery and rape is unreasonable. I do believe that human beings can rationally determine whether adultery or rape has occurred without 4 witnesses.I also believe that a woman's testimony is just as valuable as a man's and a woman can decide what is appropriate for her to wear without asking her husband. I believe that woman can walk around society unaccompanied if she chooses. I believe it is never appropriate for husband to strike his wife.I believe that stoning to death for adultery or apostasy is immoral.

I also believe it is quite fine for Jews and Christians to have political power over Muslims if they are best at the job. There should be no prohibition based upon religion. I don't believe in the modern world, polygamy is unacceptable.

I don't believe that you do know where you stand with respect to a huge number of moral issues facing human beings today. I don't believe that Islam has worked out a universal moral stance to global warming, taxation, women's rights, polygamy, defensive war, Gay rights, Dhimmi rights, Jihad, apostasy. There is a great deal of interpretation that goes on with respect to these things and they are basically the same things we have to work out in the Western world.

Wrt torture-I generally agree that torture is unacceptable, however since I have a very good imagination, I can imagine some instances where it might be acceptable. This is the problem with holy books giving universal moral prohibitions. Morality actually requires an assessment of the particular situation.

it may be that there is some evolutionary value to belief in a God or gods or spirits. I wonder though, if we are evolving away from that. I think that atheism or nonbelief or at least a minimum belief is far and away the fastest growing. If religion is truly a man-made invention, then I would expect there to be a number of different beliefs depending upon culture. I would expect that there would be great confusion about it, even amongst people of the same religion. I think this is exactly what we find.


Does Islam Discriminate Against Women or Girls?

As promised, I haven't changed any of the email or ideas one iota. I have had a lot of enjoyment reading peoples emails, particularly this one, and it's because of freedom that we can exchange views. So here is three cheers for freedom: Hooray for Freedom, Hooray, Hooray.

That was a bit weird, lol.

 

My reply will follow in the next post, It's ready, but to build up suspense, I'll be posting that tomorrow. (see below for more of my thoughts on Allah, Islam, faith and religion)

Allah has revealed to us 99 names and there are other of His names we don't know. We also can learn about His attributes, which helps us to know Him. That's one means to knowing Allah, and then there are His signs in nature, etc.

Many people say they have changed certain habits and so on, but I don't believe most people change as far as who they actually are. I think most people know themselves pretty well, it isn't about changing ourselves but our actions, which is a big part of Islamic conversion and the time that takes could be short or long depending on the person and his/her background and problems, etc. Some people find the conversion almost nothing to complain about, meaning it is rather easy for them. I didn't struggle myself with wearing hijab too much, though it took me 3 months to get up the courage when I was living at the time in a non-Muslim environment, but that is my personal experience and others have a different one.

I believe I am still the same person my parents raised and they recognize that most of the changes about me have been outer ones and others are more private, such as my thoughts or beliefs on things, which I don't always express to my family for reasons I don't go into here. But they know who I am, that I am basically the same daughter they raised and will always have my special personality and quirks.

I am a more God-conscious person however, and that is something which has been ongoing since I converted rather than something which came and went when I was Christian. It has something also to do with the society I choose to live and the company I choose to keep.

I think you have a lot of preset ideas about Islam and Muslims which makes you say the things you do, in a kind of judgmental way.

No problem, it's been interesting as usual to read your reply.

Some Points:
 

 adultery is proven with four witnesses, otherwise it can't be proven, nor can anyone's reputation be spoiled by talk of infidelity without clear evidence and witnesses  this gives opportunity for the sinner to repent of his or her crime and to stop the adulterous behaviour without being dragged through the mud, as is done in western and european nations whenever a hint of "infidelity" occurs.

It is to preserve honor and life that Allah has made it a difficult task to prove adultery by ordering that four witnesses (they must be male, even in this day and age). This requirement means that convictions don't happen a lot, unless the people themselves turn themselves in to receive the punishement (a worldly punishment will ward off the one in the hereafter). Also, if women were to be witnesses, that would maybe make it easier to find four people to testify, than if all four must be men. What adulterer is going to let people find him in a situation like this? It might not happen every one hundred years, but is a good deterrent anyway, when punishment is a possiblilty.

stats on Muslims show that their divorce rate is rising in general. This means that there is more unhappiness or instability inside marriages today,which is due to many modern reasons. We can reflect that women also seek divorce more often in shariah or family courts (in the ME) or in the West and Europe through lawyers or divorce court. But Muslim marriage is still more successful on averrage than other marriage. Infidelity is also not as much of a problem as in non-Muslim societies, in my opinion (probably stats back this up).

Rape, is another issue and viewed with great gravity by the society and earns the displeasure of Allah and is not condoned in any case. It can be easily proven by a physical examination of the victim; it isn't necessary to have even one witness if DNA testing can prove the criminal without any doubt. It is better to have witnesses to corraborate the woman or child's testimony, or in the case of men also, there is the same recourse to medical witness of a doctor or health professional, and first person accounts of witnesses and so on.

(revised June 9th)



Early Muslims and Knowledge: No Inquisition in Islamic History

I’m going to touch briefly on a topic which interests many people, that’s the misinformation about Islam regarding Jihad, specifically the “rape or murder” which some claim Islam permits or even encourages.

We can go through the reasons why logically, it doesn’t make sense for people who want to preach a religion to the conquered population, why it would be counterproductive to rape or pillage and destroy, etc. and then determine that to save the same population or their children at least from Hellfire, that the “call” to their religion will follow such crimes against humanity. It doesn’t make sense on any level.

Just because rape and pillage were the modus operandi of the non-Muslim Arabs (many of whom became Muslims later) doesn’t mean that God or the Prophet of God would permit those things; nor is there any proof of this claim just because the non-believers assert that such things happened. In the past, it was the Christians who said the same thing about Muslims - because that was their propaganda to keep women and children afraid, and justify the men’s slaughter, as well as rape of the Muslim (or the followers of other religions) women. The same thing happened this half century in Bosnia Herzegovina; all sides claimed such things happened on a wide scale, whereas there was probably a significant amount of such crimes perpetrated by only one side in the conflict there. And because of the secular nature of European Muslims, in general and their disregard for God’s law or Allah’s commands, men on all sides acted with disregard for human rights, and their actions were the result of reactions to the events and the not surprising but still wrong need to seek revenge by committing the same atrocities they witnessed in their own villages or happening to their own families and closest friends and neighbors.

Genghis Khan didn’t instruct his armies to be kind to people whom they encountered, but to kill everyone, to torture them, to cut heads and pile high pyramids of severed heads. This is because Genghis Khan didn’t want to convert anyone to his religion. He wanted to cause slaughter and mayhem; he lived his entire life and career as the tyrannical leader of his nation satisfying his own bloodlust.

If you study many other worldly leaders who committed genocide, Hitler, etc. they didn’t try to convert others to their religion or way of thinking. They killed to eliminate their enemies, raped and tortured to put fear of themselves in the enemy, and basically were lunatics not guided by any ethos of tolerance or humanitarianism.

Islam on the other hand, proposed many good things while forbidding evil; guiding principles of justice and basic rights and comprehensive change took place in a quarter of a century, which didn’t just serve to alter the course of the Arab nations which accepted Islam, but continued to provide impetus for change outside of the Islamic Empire as well. Scientific investigation owed it to the early Muslims and the belief that education in all positive fields was encouraged by the Quran and the Prophetic sayings - nor was there sex discrimination or bias as far as the pursuit of knowledge. Earlier in history, the non-Muslims never said that Muslims didn’t open doors to education or the pursuit of knowledge, they were well aware that the scientific method and open-mindedness were the Muslims’ starting point to structured learning and the Muslim Universities.

The overall condition of people in the era of Muhammad was characterized by change. As well, the precedent of a new consciousness and desire for learning set early on continued to be the impetus for philosophy and other studies which developed much later, and how and why technology also developed. When Christianity began to stagnate, the Islamic quest for more knowledge and inventiveness were beginning their stride; how can the enemies of Islam among the Christians today accuse Islam of stagnation? In fact, Islam and Muslims never had an inquisition of the general community of scientific or exploratory minds; nor of other religions. The doctrine also didn’t change to suit the whims of any leader in particular who wished to pursue a course of action or philosophy which ran counter to the true doctrines of Islam; if they did, they had many outspoken critics; even al-Hajjaj was opposed so that he executed many of his opposition, but the large body of knowledge and the population of learned Muslims could not all be conquered by hit squads of paid soldiers or a Stalin style leadership. Eventually the oppressors are either assassinated by the population or more often eliminated by other power hungry elite in his own circle or government. As with all Empires, Islam also had its decline when the people didn’t deserve the kind of leaders of the past who upheld the Islamic Sharia. If the leaders are corrupt, no doubt the population also has been led astray by satanic whims and evil practices, godlessness and disregard for religion or goodness. It’s noteworthy that the Quran was one constant in life that could not be effaced, nor did it ever succumb to change.

Yes, Christians eventually threw off the vestiges of their iniquitous past, instead adopting secularism, or democracy, and the religion and state split was more than complete by the turn of this century. But it took a long time. Now the so-called advanced nations and the spokespeople for democracy, or the New world order, or humanitarianism say that they cannot wait 500 years for Islam to likewise throw off the yoke of Islamic government, or the sharia, and quickly adopt any Western or modern style of government. But Islam never was in need of reformation the way that Christianity was; that’s because unlike Christianity, Islam didn’t become corrupt; it wasn’t changed, and the laws of Islam are the basic progressive and just laws which Muslims always enjoyed and which are universal even today; International jurisprudence, (international) maritime law, and Islam’s family law, just distribution in the laws of inheritance (based not on gender equality alone, but a just distribution according to men’s and women’s different responsibilities) etc. are all based on or part of the Islamic Sharia. Why fix something if it’s not broken?

If you read throughout my blog, you’ll see that it isn’t an uphill battle to defend the teachings of Islam and the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah unto him. On the contrary, the sources indicate that Islam has and always will be the one constant in history, since Allah revealed His will to the desert Arabs, and from there, it has always been obvious that Islam is a force to be reckoned with and at the same time, is an illuminating light, what humanity can (and should eventually) agree on, at its core is a source of guidance to what is good and right.

http://islamicvoice.com/february.99/comparative.htm#ULT